Interpol: FARC files real

[Neomega]

I assume you don't think the IRA were terrorists?

That you'd classify their actions during the troubles as somhow justified, on the grounds of 'civil war'?

As it goes, the IRA has more claim to this dubious justification then FARC. Saying that, it may be that 'Organised Criminals' is a better name for FARC then terrorists. Most of their action (Such as extortion, trafficking and ransom) seem more like the actions of a profit motivated criminal group rather then a politically motivated terrorist faction.

Nevertheless, there's quite an easy way to cut off their main source of funding. But the US would never brook it.

if it were cut off, it would cut off the funding for the anti-FARC forces as well.
The whole war is a result of the drug trade. without it, the war would end, because both sides would have no money.

re: terrorism

I just don't care to label different groups as terrorists. It a political label and a waste of time. Everyone calls everyone else terrorists... it's just stupid. Terrorism is a tactic, and everyone uses it. The Chechnyans are terrorists, but look at the way they were treated by Russia.

 

[Rik Meleet]

(..)Again, no. Actually, the Carter administration worked with, not against, the Sandanistas up until 1980. (..)

Without names, do you realise how annoying it is discussing with someone who is always wrong, doesn't like to back up his claims and if he does try to back them up has his facts wrong and on top of that is either so stubborn or stupid that he never admits he is wrong, even if it is dead obvious ??

Carter did not back the sandinisten (FSNL).

In early 1979, President Jimmy Carter and the United States no longer supported the Somoza regime, but did not want a left-wing government to take power in Nicaragua. The moderate "Broad Opposition Front" (Frente Amplio Opositor - FAO) which opposed Somoza was made up of a conglomeration of dissidents within the government as well as the "Democratic Union of Liberation" (UDEL) and the "Twelve", representatives of the Terceristas. The FAO and Carter came up with a plan that would remove Somoza from office but left no part in government power for the FSLN.[30] The "Twelve" abandoned the coalition in protest and formed the "National Patriotic Front" (Frente Patriotico Nacional - FPN) together with the "United People's Movement" (MPU).

link

 

[lovett]

I just don't care to label different groups as terrorists. It a political label and a waste of time. Everyone calls everyone else terrorists... it's just stupid. Terrorism is a tactic, and everyone uses it. The Chechnyans are terrorists, but look at the way they were treated by Russia.

Fair enough. I agree that the term is bandied around far to much to maintain much value. It's largely just a propaganda term. The problem with it being that it focuses on the methods' of organizations, rather then the motives. As such, it obscures the best ways to deal with what usually are political groups.

 

[amadeus]

Carter did not back the sandinisten (FSNL).

What? Carter gave the Sandinistas $25 million in food and medical aid, tried to get international loans for Nicaragua, and even said that if we didn't fund the Sandinistas, they might "turn" towards the Soviet Union.

 

[MobBoss]

Without names, do you realise how annoying it is discussing with someone who is always wrong, doesn't like to back up his claims and if he does try to back them up has his facts wrong and on top of that is either so stubborn or stupid that he never admits he is wrong, even if it is dead obvious ??

Yeah, its even worse when the person, without names, is a mod. /shrug.

But this is what I was referencing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contras

From late 1979 through 1980, the Carter administration made efforts to work with FSLN policies. However, when President Ronald Reagan took office in January 1981, the United States government launched a campaign to isolate the Sandinista government. Claiming that Nicaragua, with assistance from Cuba and the Soviet Union, was supplying arms to the guerrillas in El Salvador, the Reagan administration suspended all United States aid to Nicaragua on January 23, 1981.

Carter did not back the sandinisten (FSNL).

O' really? Jimmy Carters own wiki site says otherwise. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Carter

The Carter Administration ended support to the historically U.S.-backed Somoza regime in Nicaragua and gave aid to the new Sandinista National Liberation Front government that assumed power after Somoza's overthrow.

So yeah...I do know how it feels to discuss things with someone who is always wrong, doesn't like to back up his claims and if he does try to back them up has his facts wrong and on top of that is either so stubborn or stupid that he never admits he is wrong, even if it is dead obvious ?? Very much so.

 

[luiz]

Not surprise that they real, and also not surprised that only sources from terrorist-endorsing nutcase websites try to claim anything other than the fact that the original accusations are, in all likelyhood, true.

 

[Princeps]

Again...no, they werent. In fact, some of the founders of the Contras were also anti-Somozistas prior to the Sandanistas overthrowing Somoza.

Yes, some. However, they were the minority. Of course, Washington always emphasized their existence in propaganda.

Also, before Reagan the Contras were fairly minor organization. The US poured arms to them in mass, all sort of advanced weapons. The Contras were largely an astroturfed militant organization.

Again, no. Actually, the Carter administration worked with, not against, the Sandanistas up until 1980. Reagan changed that in 1981.

Nonsense. Carter demanded that the national guard should be allowed to remain as the military, which would've effectively returned the Somozaist regime back to power.

The Somoza regime and the Contras had the same objectives, the same values, the same soldiers, and the same methods, and they fought for the same masters in Washington. In other words, they were effectively the same faction.

 

[holy king]

O' really? Jimmy Carters own wiki site says otherwise. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Carter

"citation needed". please dont tell me you wrote that in there yourself.

 

[MobBoss]

Yes, some. However, they were the minority. Of course, Washington always emphasized their existence in propaganda.

Right. Again, I give you direct proof that the contras were a different group than the Somoza government and you stick your head in the sand and call it propaganda....

Also, before Reagan the Contras were fairly minor organization.

I dont disagree with that at all. But then again, I am honest enought to recognize fact when I see it and not claim its propaganda...

 

[h4ppy]

Maybe you didn't notice, but there has been a 30 year, 3-way civil war going on there. Funny way of saying they support the US backed government.

Maybe you didn't notice, but they actually managed to have democractic elections this time and the guys who won want the U.S. there. Its funny how Chavez constantly whines about people trying to overthrow his legitimate government while he does the same thing to the legitimate government next door.

 

[Patroklos]

Just cuz bush calls them a terrorist, doesn't make it so. Since the FARC focuses its attacks on military, the police, and government, they are not really terrorists...

You realize most of the people they kidnap are civilians, right?

 

[Leonel]

if it were cut off, it would cut off the funding for the anti-FARC forces as well.
The whole war is a result of the drug trade. without it, the war would end, because both sides would have no money.

re: terrorism

I just don't care to label different groups as terrorists. It a political label and a waste of time. Everyone calls everyone else terrorists... it's just stupid. Terrorism is a tactic, and everyone uses it. The Chechnyans are terrorists, but look at the way they were treated by Russia.

Well I suppose we could engineer cocaine that gives a better high but without the nasty side effects of addiction or death.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

And Reagan was evil because?.......

He lied to Congress.

He lied to the American people.

He sold military equipment to a known hostile regime so he could fund his own little war in Nicaragua.

The people he backed during that war had spent the previous ten years screwing it to hell and back. At least the Sandanistas built schools and provided healthcare.

He lied to Congress again when he sold AWACS planes to Saudi Arabia for billions of dollars so they could fund the building of huge military cities and command centers.

He waged an undeclared naval war against Iran.

He screwed our budget over by dramatically increasing the debt by cutting taxes and increasing the military budget unecessarily.

And the worst of it is that people still worship him for it all.

Did I forget anything else?

 

[Elrohir]

terrorists.

Thats a civil war. Real, bona-fied civil war, with real nasty business on both sides for 30 years.

Just cuz bush calls them a terrorist, doesn't make it so. Since the FARC focuses its attacks on military, the police, and government, they are not really terrorists...

(or narco-terrorists... or whatever other propaganda labels the US wants to slp on them)


Like you, Anything that the US government says is bad, I am against.

It's not just the US that says they're terrorists. Canada and the European Union do as well - what, is Canada and Europe Bush's minions now?

Human Rights Watch, hardly an organization that mindlessly supports the current American administration, has said that “FARC-EP continued to commit grave breaches [of human rights] such as murders of protected persons, torture and hostage-taking, which affected many civilians, including women, returnees, boys and girls, and ethnic groups." Their 2004 report (Warning: PDF File) details everything from the kidnap and rape of a civilian bacteriologist by a FARC commander to various massacres and assassinations of peasants, mayors, councilmen, and any number of non-combatants. They launched grenades against gatherings of civilians, they blew a bomb up in a discotheque (A club), have launched car bombs against civilians, attacked police stations, taken university students and professors hostage, tortured civilians to death, murdered a 15 year old girl they took hostage, forcibly displaced large numbers of people, recklessly planted anti-personnel mines that harmed civilians, forcibly recruited boys as young as 12, executed a woman for washing clothes for soldiers in the army, enslaving women for sexual purposes, attacked medical personnel numerous times....the list goes on and on. And that's some of the stuff recorded in one report in one year. They're a terrorist group, plain and simple.

But they're fighting for the Revolution! They want to enact leftist policies which you favor! That means they must be OK, and that this is all some Bushie conspiracy!

Neomega, stop being an apologist for terrorism. Because that's what you're doing, it's despicable.

 

[Neomega]

Neomega, stop being an apologist for terrorism. Because that's what you're doing, it's despicable.

It's all terrorism to me, you just make exceptions when its favored by the US or Israel. That's what is despicable.

But they're fighting for the Revolution! They want to enact leftist policies which you favor! That means they must be OK, and that this is all some Bushie conspiracy!

ZUH - ing!

:flame:

 

[Neomega]

You realize most of the people they kidnap are civilians, right?

civilians like mayors, police chiefs, and politicians.

OH NOES, they are INNOCENT civilians, ALL THEY do is TRY TO IMPRISON FARC members! How Dare the FARC fight back!

Whne the government of Columbia does it, its "imprisoning", when the FARC does it, it's "kidnapping".

Do you really think the Government of Colombia is some clean entity? Its just as corrupted by drug money, through and through.

Well I suppose we could engineer cocaine that gives a better high but without the nasty side effects of addiction or death.

We could just end the drug war.

Or if we must fight it, at least focus on treatment, and making people feel like they are welcome to seek help, not destined for a jail cell, life ruining record, and a mountain of fines and fees.

 

[Elrohir]

It's all terrorism to me, you just make exceptions when its favored by the US or Israel. That's what is despicable.

So when US soldiers kill Al Qaeda operatives....that's terrorism, and it's horrible. When FARC soldiers kidnap children and force women into sexual slavery, that's something no one should care about, and is A-OK?

The US and Israel try to minimize civilian casualties wherever possible. Trust me: if Israel wanted to kill all the Palestinians in Gaza or the West Bank, they could. They could exterminate them in a month if they really wanted to, and Syria and Egypt and Jordan wouldn't be able to do a damn thing about it. The Palestinians live because the Israeli's are more civilized than the members of Hamas and Hezbollah - they fight to survive themselves, not exterminate others.

Your continual acceptance of terrorism when it's aimed at Jews or Americans, but your condemnation of reasonable, proportional violence towards actual terrorists is wearying.

But I guess it's good that you're up front and honest about the fact that terrorism, murder, rape and violent revolution aren't a big deal with you.

 

[Neomega]

So when US soldiers kill Al Qaeda operatives....that's terrorism, and it's horrible. When FARC soldiers kidnap children and force women into sexual slavery, that's something no one should care about, and is A-OK?

No

The US and Israel try to minimize civilian casualties wherever possible.

minimize, but do it often.

Your continual acceptance of terrorism when it's aimed at Jews or Americans,

but your condemnation of reasonable, proportional violence towards actual terrorists is wearying.

Yeah, thats what I said.



edit: reasonable like Lebanon in 2006?

dont answer... I know, It was Israel, so it was A-OK!!!

But I guess it's good that you're up front and honest about the fact that terrorism, murder, rape and violent revolution aren't a big deal with you.

I said it's all the same to me. None of it is good.

Keep twisting my words to make yourself feel better about all the blood on your hands.

 

[Elrohir]

minimize, but do it often.

Some casualties are unavoidable in war.

If 2 gunmen walk into a marketplace and open up with AK-47's, and US soldiers open fire, killing them, and in the process accidentally hit a shopkeeper behind them - that's unfortunate. That's collateral damage, but it is the result of a legitimate, proportional response to a legitimate military threat. (If they'd dropped a 10 ton bomb on the marketplace to kill two gunmen standing in the open, that would be disproportional, and you'd have a point) That is the kind of situation where the US or Israeli military kills civilians.

FARC (And Hamas and Hezbollah) target civilians. They intentionally kidnap civilians to rape or torture or rob or hold for ransom - or just to execute. They intentionally blow up civilian's houses and churches and attack medical personnel solely to cause fear. That is terrorism, pure and simple, and is completely distinct from a proportional response aimed at minimizing civilian casualties, as I described above. If you really can't see this, then you are blind. I think you are intentionally blind, though - because even a truly ignorant person could see the difference.

I said it's all the same to me. None of it is good.

And yet, your response to FARC terrorism was "who cares"? If you don't care about something, then obviously it isn't a big deal to you.

 

[Leonel]

We could just end the drug war.

How would that deprive the cartels of money? If anything, they'd be getting more money from not having to put so much money into smuggling and they'd still do what they're doing now. The only difference is that more cocaine would stream into the US.

Or if we must fight it, at least focus on treatment, and making people feel like they are welcome to seek help, not destined for a jail cell, life ruining record, and a mountain of fines and fees.

Like rehab clinics?

The only way the drug cartel's are going to fall is either with force or we beat them at their own game, making a substance that produces a better high, little or no addictiveness and at a much cheaper cost than what the cartels are offering.