IOT Developmental Thread

[Thorvald of Lym]

People have been asking me to make a game, so I figure it's as good a time as any to lay down the framework for a project I've been brainstorming for some time. For lack of a hype-inspiring title, I'll call it

The Civ Project​

The design-premise is simple: How do I run a stats-based game that won't drive me to suicide? (Also: How do I make a stats game intuitive to players that don't have an accounting degree?) Back during a playtest of Reus' mod, I thought: "Instead of Spreadsheet Simulator™, why not use a game as the engine?" The end product would hybridize the mechanics of hard-stats with the free-form interface of 'narrative' games; kind of like an AAR, except I'm playing all sides simultaneously. In addition to making updates actually fun to do, the session can play out in 'real time' before an official orders lock, giving it an organic progression and alleviating my common frustration over players using chess-like strategizing to game the turn rollovers.

A basic example of how it would work: Player A routinely posts instructions emphasizing infrastructure development; cities produce lots of workers to terraform the countryside, and optimize their growth with granaries and the such. Player B concentrates on overwhelming military force; cities build factories and churn out units but neglect civil infrastructure. When both players go to war, Player B's huge standing army grants an initial advantage, but Player A's robust industry gives it the strength to endure the long run, whereas the moment Player B starts losing cities the country's in trouble.

This schematic also means that tactics and logistics finally have a direct relationship to military stats: players can spam conscripts for horde value, or take the time to develop a versatile combined-arms strike force. Defending players can use terrain to their advantage through ambushes and bottlenecks, pillaging roads and rails to disrupt reinforcements and cut off supplies to occupied cities. Overseas intervention becomes much riskier as without a friendly logistics chain, expeditionary forces may find themselves stranded in enemy territory—and heavy tanks take time to replace.

The particulars of the game's rules (and whether we want to play with fantasy/sci-fi settings) depend on which game I use as the foundation, and that's where you come in. I own most of the Civ series; different games offer different perks, so I'm asking your advice in determining what sort of underlying mechanics sound the most fun:

Civilization II: Test of Time with TheNamelessOne's Patch Project

Discounting the original MGE, the earliest version I can feasibly use. Highly moddable, easily moddable, and most stats can be edited as the game is running. The inclusion of the TOTPP vastly expands the mutability of the underlying ruleset, in some cases to Civ4 levels. Has a simple but fairly-featured Events Script for specially-tailored custom scenarios. Can run up to four separate maps in a single game. Its main drawback is the 7-player limit which will require some creative workarounds in a large game.

Freeciv

Open-source Civ2-inspired clone that implements features of Civ3. Highly moddable in theory, but a nightmare to actually do. Can support up to 126(!) players in a single game.

Civilization III: Conquests

The game I'm most adept in modding-wise. The insane number of third-party unit graphics lends itself to individualized tech trees and multi-tiered arsenals. Doesn't support custom events scripting. Rules can't be changed once the game is in progress, so this will require the most work to set up.

Civilization IV: Beyond the Sword

From what I understand, this is the most familiar to the IOT player base. Allows diverse economic and cultural strategies. Absurdly moddable, but less intuitive than Civ3 and will probably take the most time to set up; conversely, has a variety of game mods that can save me the trouble of embellishing the vanilla tech tree.

Comparison at a glance:

[TABLE="head"] |Civ2|Freeciv|Civ3|Civ4
Max. players|7¹|126¹|32²|40+³
Max. units|127|Theoretically unlimited|More than we'll probably use|Theoretically unlimited
Unit style|ATK/DEF/Hitpoints/Firepower|ATK/DEF/Hitpoints/Firepower|ATK/DEF/Hitpoints/Firepower|Base strength with class modifiers
Unit upkeep|Production|Production|Gold|Gold
Can retreat|No|No|Conditional|Moddable
Veterancy|DEF boost, 1 level|DEF boost, multiple levels|HP boost, multiple levels|Class-specific upgrades
Zone of control|Yes, blocks movement|Yes, blocks movement|Unit-specific, attack-of-opportunity|No, moddable?
Ranged artillery|No|No|Yes|Moddable
Aircraft style|Direct combat|Direct combat|Air missions; ground bombardment|Air missions; ground bombardment
Capturable units|No|Workers?|Workers, 0 ATK/DEF, Enslavement|Workers, moddable
Espionage|Direct, spy units|Direct, spy units|Indirect, gold purchase|Direct, spy units + point purchase
Max. maps|4|1|1|1
Terraforming|Yes|Yes|Chop/plant trees|Chop trees, moddable
Rush build|Yes, gold|Yes, gold|Yes, gov't dependent|Gov't dependent
Faction traits|No, moddable UUs|No, moddable?|Yes|Civ-specific UUs/UBs, leader-specific traits
Government|7 styles, somewhat moddable|6, moddable|6, moddable|5x5, moddable
Gov't-as-prerequisite|Fanatics unit|Moddable?|Moddable, buildings|Moddable
War weariness|Gov't dependent, units afield|Gov't dependent, units afield|Gov't influenced, multiple factors|Multiple factors
Civil disorder|City strike, Democracy can revolt|City strike, Democracy can revolt(?)|City strike, buildings can be lost, Nuclear Plant can melt down|City loses efficiency; riots freeze culture, damage troops
City conquest|Instant assimilation|Gradual assimilation|Foreign resistance, gradual assimilation|Fixed transitional period, assimilation based on Culture rate
Diplomacy|Limited, indirect⁴|Intermediate, direct|Intermediate, direct|Advanced, direct
UN forum|No|No|Diplomatic victory|Yes
Demarcated borders|No, permeable|Yes, permeable|Yes, permeable|Yes, impermeable
ROP rape⁵|Sort of|Sort of|Yes|No
Stack with allies|No, cities heal troops|Yes|No|Yes
Strategic resources|No|No|Yes, can trade spares|Yes, can trade source
Foreign trade|Direct through Caravans|Direct through Caravans|N/A|Indirect
Event scripting|Yes|Yes|No|Yes
Can mod in-game|Yes|Yes?|No|Partially
Modding ease|Very|Low|Very|Somewhat
[/TABLE]

¹ – Plus barbarians
² – Barbarians playable
³ – Caveman2Cosmos mod proves concept, although I haven't confirmed in multiplayer.
⁴ – In Hotseat, diplomacy is interpreted by the AI based on player-set Attitude.
⁵ – Declaring war with units stationed in foreign territory does not relocate them outside the nation's borders.

N.B. Depending on the engine, development of the game proper won't become feasible until after I get a new desktop. So don't start the hype train yet.

 

[Arrow Gamer]

Words

Congrats on inventing the NES.

 

[Omega124]

Thayli tried doing something similar to this in Civ IV. The project went /OK/, I wouldn't necessarily call it either a success nor a failure. I'm not really sure I'd be interested in doing it a second time, though. You kind of feel a little... powerless playing this type of game. It's hard to know when pure RP ends and actual in game effects begin, and reacting to warfare is hard, as the few wars there should show.

From what it sounds like, you want to do it in Civ II the most, and I think you might be better off doing it that way. You clearly have more experience with it, and how to manipulate the game scenerio for maximum modding effect. The issue of seven people could be solved by... only having seven players. Just make it so that ones who want to play have to audition for it. Sounds a little harsh, but only real way around it.

 

[Double A]

Isn't Civ II the most similar to Dwarf Fortress in terms of why are my eyes bleeding and why is there an event horizon forming in my amygdala?

 

[Thorvald of Lym]

I can see such being levelled against Civ1, but this is literally the very first time I've heard someone dis Civ2 for its graphics. Excepting the Kobayashi–Cpt. Nemo fight over third-party units. "Good" times.

Unless you mean optimizing caravan spam, in which case yes, my brain has hardened from the experience.

Congrats on inventing the NES.

And yet, Thayli voted against the merge...

Thayli tried doing something similar to this in Civ IV. The project went /OK/, I wouldn't necessarily call it either a success nor a failure. I'm not really sure I'd be interested in doing it a second time, though. You kind of feel a little... powerless playing this type of game. It's hard to know when pure RP ends and actual in game effects begin, and reacting to warfare is hard, as the few wars there should show.

I read through, and it looks like that played as an actual AAR.

What I'm aiming for is more of a black box: it'd play like early XIV, but that I'm not making the numbers up as I go. There would be a few hard stats tracked in the updates, but otherwise it's general rankings and suggestive inferences. Live the dream; leave the details to me. Unless you want the details, in which case I really need to do something about my PM box.

Wars would be a mix of strategic, and where desired, tactical command. Anyone that suffered IOT IV knows I have a soft spot for battlefield tactics, and combat would resolve much like the OFP sims: players would have access to details on their standing army and can dictate how to allocate forces to _x sector, and where prolonged battles emerge, opt to take charge of the front themselves. The end goal is to make this game need as much or as little input as you want.

 

[Double A]

I meant the tech tree.

 

[Ailedhoo]

Will there be modded units to add with our special research projects? My assault rovers must ride!

Speaking of rovers: can Alpha Centauri be a option?

Still I will not mind which one as long potential research projects are modifiable in game.

 

[Terran Empress]

I personally think that Civ 4 would be the best, IOT is the most familiar with it in general, and I really how moddable it is, though you are right it would take the longest to set up.

Civ 3 is the first civ game I have played, and holds a special place in my heart, but it and free civ seem like the two worst options for this TBH.

Civ 2, I have to agree with megan on this, civ IV is my preference, but you are most familiar with Civ 2, (though i do have to say, I really like having boarders like in civ 4) and megan's suggestion is probably teh best, have auditions.

 

[Civ'ed]

it'd play like early XIV

Nope.avi

 

[SouthernKing]

I think I already told you this in chat but I feel like the main reason these games have never been particularly successfully (aside from thlayli's general slowness in modding) is that playing one feels less like an interactive game and more like giving instructions to someone who is playing for you. Getting around that is going to be difficult but that's the point of this discussion I guess. Having stats and whatnot that are outside the civ game would be a good start.

I'd suggest 4 just from familiarity if the game's that tied with the forum game.

(What does "max units" mean?)

 

[Ailedhoo]

What will the civ be or will we all be civs? Signing up as either the S.U.D.S, the Imperium of Man, the Platonic Republic, the Gethic Hand, the power I was in the Civ4 IOT mod or something else.

 

[Tyo]

So like this totally looks like I'm ripping Thor's idea but I swear I'm not.
Edit: turns out thors game was more involved with civ than I initially thought so there's that
*mood image woo*

The Dawn is a game based on the Civilization series, mainly CivV. The plan is to make a series of games focusing on different time periods, within the same timeline. This game in particular will be focusing up to the Medieval era, but will have representation for the Classical and ancient eras.

I still have a resources boner, so you guys can count on resource acquisition and management being in this game. However, it won’t be survival-y — bThink of it like finding resources in Civ. You can live without them (other players aside), but you probably really want them.

Here's my current rules draft

Spoiler :

Sign Up

You can base your countries off IRL countries, whether they were born in the time period or not. Just make sure that you spin it in a way that fits the time period. You may also borrow fictional countries, or make your own completely original fictional countries. If it fits, it ships.

Name: The name of your country. Feel free to add both off-hand and official names.
Capital: The name of the first and only city you have to start out.
Description: A rundown of your government’s internal stuff. Your type of government, internal politics, and anything else of note. Decides some things relating to stability and internal political events.
History: We are starting in the “Classical” Era. You lot have an entire era of human history to build up. Go crazy. Or don’t. Just put something down that makes sense. Quality begets brownie points.
Placement: Select a spot from the world map. Post an image of your selection. I won’t make a strict constraint. None of you can be Rome or China-level big, but I can allow fairly large countries. My only requests are be humble and try to take other peoples’ posts into consideration. Everyone is going to be starting out at about the same footing - so please, try to be similar in size. Also, along with your claims map, add on a map that depicts what provinces are working on what growth resource. For context, please read the mechanics section.

Setting

As I mentioned earlier, this game is based of Civilization. So, we will be on Earth (on a not-fake map because you guys can’t be trusted with that) in a fairly realistic setting. I’m not a historian, economist, or really anybody with credible knowledge on any subject, so some amount of “suspension of disbelief” in terms of constructions and such should be given. No mystical beings or fantasy races are allowed. This is to say that elves are banned, but is not to say that Neanderthals and other pre-homo sapien sapiens are. This also does not limit belief in mysticism. None of your religions will be canon in my eyes, but you are free to create them and expand on them as much as you’d like.

Here’s the mechanics section.

Spoiler Rules 'n shiz :

Resource Management

There are three kinds of resources in this game. “Hard” Resources, “Growth” Resources, and “Progress” Resources.

Hard Resources are comparable to strategic and luxury resources in Civ games. In this game, you don’t necessarily need them but they are a fairly good boon to have. They often provide flat but large bonuses to Growth and Progress Resources and can have an effect on things like stability.

Growth Resources are resources related to the growth of your people and infrastructure. Most of these kinds of resources utilize the land outside your cities. Growth Resources are divided into three main categories: Food. Production, and Coin. Provinces must be assigned a growth resource to gather - your people will try to use the land to the best of their abilities towards the assigned resource. The only provinces that do not get assigned are provinces where cities exist.

Food is directly proportional to the expansion of your borders. The more food you obtain, the faster you will expand. For simplicity, you needn’t give your people rations. The food you produce will automatically be given to your populace. If you feel as though you are getting overpopulated, you must stop producing food from the source. However, that could come with some backlash and it’s unlikely that you will be able to stop 100% of your food production once your civilization picks up.

Production allows you to undertake building projects - anything from necessary infrastructure like aqueducts to the equivalent of “wonders.” As far as this game is concerned, production will be the universal resource for construction - however your production is finite and it is up to you to figure what is worth building.

Coin is the universal currency of the game. You may call it what you want - gold, denari, whathaveyou. It is unique among the Growth Resources in that it is much more heavily influenced by buildings in your cities such as marketplaces. It is primarily used to maintain constructed buildings and units- but also finds uses in events, stability management, and other such things.

Progress Resources are resources that relate to the progress of your civilization on a societal level. The gathering of these resources are mainly influenced by the buildings in your cities as well as your roleplay. The emergence of new technologies and the advancement of your culture depend on these resources - suitably and uncreatively, the resources are Science and Culture. Something special about Progress Resources is that their products can bleed into other civilizations depending on your deals with them or if you are producing a LOT of it.

Science, as the name suggests, dictates your technological progress. In short, the more science you have, the more likely a technological discovery will be discovered in your borders. Furthermore, it increases the rate in which a technology permeates through your land - but also increases the rate in which discovered technologies cross over your border. This is explained further in the Technology section.

Culture, also as the name suggests, dictates the advancement of your culture. Of the two Progress Resources, this one is much more reliant on roleplay - but it is not entirely so. You may still construct buildings that contribute to culture gain. Culture has a much more passive effect on gameplay and is the most “relative” resource. When your culture is rich, stability tends to improve and people seem to be better at their jobs, increasing the yields of the other resources. Furthermore, a rich culture will tend to spill over the border. This will increase the culture of the civilization it’s spilling on, thus increasing their yields - however, the tradeoff is that the civilization in question will become greatly influenced by your actions. It can be so influenced that the civilization will face serious stability penalties when acting against your wishes, making it a very useful tool in developing soft power strength.

Structures

Your civilization can be expanded vertically by the erection of buildings. There are standardized buildings that will be available to all at the start, and more to be unlocked. Buildings can do anything from increasing resource yields to increasing internal stability.

• In addition to regular structures, you can also construct “wonders.” The catch is that the project has to be big and meaningful - requiring several turns of input to be completed. There are a few rules and requirements pertaining to creating a wonder.
• You must have a technology completely spread throughout your borders.
• The wonder must be related to that technology in some way.
• You must agree to have this Wonder concept be broadcasted to the world - anybody with that technology spread throughout its borders may attempt to construct it.
• The player who completes it — even if it is not the player who proposed it — will be the only player to receive its full benefits.
• If you do not complete it in time, you will however get a sort of “proto-wonder” building in its place that has dramatically smaller effects that depend on how close you were to finishing the project.
• If the person who proposes the wonder completes it, they will receive a bonus that will not be disclosed until they complete it.
• There may only be one wonder per technology — if multiple people have an idea for the same technology, the idea I like best will win out.
• Pitch me an idea and I'll tell how capable you are of doing it. It is entirely possible that you simply aren't capable of a project you have in mind.

Cities themselves with no buildings have no upkeep. Each building built in a city accrues two Coin per turn. Wonders do not accrue upkeep.

Technology

There exists an invisible “technology tree” that players will climb up as discoveries are made in time. With enough science, you can discover a technology within that tree. In terms of obtaining a new technology, there are two phases. Discovery of a technology will reveal to the world that the technology exists and what the technology does. However, to reap the benefits of that technology, you have to get that technology spread across your borders. This is the second phase and is also influenced by your science output. The first to discover AND completely expand a technology across their borders will receive a bonus related to that technology. Because the person who discovered the technology already has a lead advantage, the receive no additional bonuses. Once a technology has been completely spread across a civilization, it can then bleed into other civilizations. This automatically “discovers” the technology for them and increases the speed in which the technology spreads across its borders. However, if the technology becomes an integral part of this technologically inferior civilization, there is a chance that the tech leader that the technology came from will get a “cultural advantage” over them, increasing the lower country’s susceptibility to the higher country’s culture. In other words, staying behind technologically is a bad idea. however, this is not to say it will cause immediate hegemony - it’s an advantage, not a total victory.

War

*insert fallout war never changes quote*
This game, unlike my previous attempt at a game, does not emphasize cooperation at all. You may cooperate - and it may be advantageous, but I totally condone warring your neighbors at will.

Just like structures, there will be standardized units that are unlocked from the get-go, and that can be unlocked with time and effort.
However, you may also create your own units with enough determination and technology. Like for wonders, PM me what you have in mind and we'll go from there. However, they do play by different rules than for wonders. Here’s some regulations:

• ALL civs can only have one unique unit per technology completely unlocked.
• The unique unit must be related to that technology. There are technologies that simply won’t make sense to have a UU for.
• While civs can have unique units both based on the same technology, they cannot copy each other.
• I am the last voice in terms of the units’ stats in the end.
• While civs can’t copy UU’s, they can steal them. This is a sort of special event, however, and likely won’t happen *very* often.

Stories

Of course, this isn't an IOT/NES without stories! Now, I really like stories. Give me something good to read and good, or at least "interesting," things will come your way.

 

[Thorvald of Lym]

Nah Tyo, you still cool.

I meant the tech tree.

Hah, I still have the original wall poster.

Speaking of rovers: can Alpha Centauri be a option?

It's possible, but unit designs aside there's not a lot of scope for modification and it would probably feel the 'gamiest' of the candidate foundations.

I think I already told you this in chat but I feel like the main reason these games have never been particularly successfully (aside from thlayli's general slowness in modding) is that playing one feels less like an interactive game and more like giving instructions to someone who is playing for you. Getting around that is going to be difficult but that's the point of this discussion I guess. Having stats and whatnot that are outside the civ game would be a good start.

Aye, I definitely got that feel from Thayli's game, and this is what I'm dead-set on avoiding. Aside from aforementioned tactical combat, your direct interaction with the Civ-game would be minimized as much as possible—i.e. your ability to play won't depend on your familiarity with the game engine. If you were ever privy to the early dev diaries of Project Marmot, the main stats will probably resemble this spoilered list, and may include a cousin mechanic for influence-peddling. Some of these will clearly be derived directly from the Civ-game, but the idea is to obfuscate relationships as much as possible so that your focus stays in the thread: technically a stats-game, but with the flexibility of free-form.

(What does "max units" mean?)

Maximum definable unit types. Civ3 has a high-end cap of some multiple of 32, but I think that only kicks in over the 1000-mark so unless the game proper turns into a C2C knockoff I probably won't have to worry about it.

Signing up as

*disqualified out of hand due to presign*

 

[Ailedhoo]

It's possible, but unit designs aside there's not a lot of scope for modification and it would probably feel the 'gamiest' of the candidate foundations.

Understood.

*disqualified out of hand due to presign*

Link to video.

 

[Double A]

Hah, I still have the original wall poster.

Is your wall even big enough?

 

[christos200]

Souds interesting. I myself am familiar with Civ IV and V only, so IV would be the preferable choice, but I have no problem with you using Civ II (or III) either. By the way, will it start from the ancient era or will you have it start at a later age?

 

[Thorvald of Lym]

Is your wall even big enough?

Eh, I have three spares.

By the way, will it start from the ancient era or will you have it start at a later age?

That's the next step after settling on the engine: what sort of game we want. I was going to keep it safe and stick to a single epoch, but depending on people's tastes I can see about spinning it into a longue durée affair.

 

[Tyo]

Against all better judgement I created a new game check it out it's all classical and stuff

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=551898

 

[Sonereal]

Man—every man—is an end in himself, not a means to the ends of others; he must live for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself.

He must work for his rational self-interest, with the achievement of his own happiness as the highest moral purpose of his life.

[YOUTUBE=1]EIVgSuuUTwQ[/YOUTUBE]​

https://docs.google.com/document/d/...GxP9okofEnnbtIMzs/edit#heading=h.o0rfyr2qm6tr

This is a rough draft of the ruleset. Useful suggestions and feedback would be greatly welcomed.

 

[Terran Empress]

On 3 October 2000, a small nuclear device is detonated in Lancaster. The attack was perpetrated by a Marxist-Islamist terrorist organization in the Middle East and the United States, with the UN’s tacit blessing, was quick to retaliate in the Middle East against the organization, its allies, and its supporters.

In Lancaster, private, state, and federal money flowed in to facilitate the development of Lancaster. Over the next thirty years, the city would reemerge once more as a major center of finance, but also of technology.

ahhhh so Lancaster is Hoofington from F:OE Project Horizons :^)

In all serious, I like the setting and from what i've read the game sounds really fun, most definitely going to play