christos200
Never tell me the odds
How wars will work? Only units/numbers determinate victory or can war plans play a role in victory?
IOT Developmental Thread
- Thread starter Joecoolyo
- Start date
Bowsling
Deity
Yes, that is IMO the best way to handle tech. When I was pondering running a nonfreshstartiot that was the system I designed. It's probably buried somewhere in this thread. Be warned that it is quite fiddly, so you have to do a lot of work poking around with numbers and such.
arya126
Squad Leader
War plans can only help you in so far as overall strategy. For example, attacking in the south while you have feinted to the north to draw the enemy's units. They will take no direct part in the calculations due to the arbitrary nature of deciding which is better.
Not sure how I will handle units yet. In feudal society militaries were usually based on levies, but i don't think that will work in an IOT. What I might do is make 2 types of units: active and reserve. Active would be your typical standing army, but cost a lot of maintenance. Reserve would be like the levies you would call upon in times of war, and wouldn't cost anything besides a reduced normal fee until they are raised to active duty. Reserve units would also take a full turn to raise from reserve to active, while active duty units are already active and can be used the turn they are bought.
However the high maintenance will also discourage wars without good reason. I may also incorporate manpower somehow, since I liked how LH used it in IOTHF, but I don't want to make this too complicated to keep track of. If I do use it it will serve as another reason besides maintenance to keep as much of your population at home working the fields as you can, as thats what your nation depends on.
Naval units will likely utilize the same active/reserve approach.
Not sure how I will handle units yet. In feudal society militaries were usually based on levies, but i don't think that will work in an IOT. What I might do is make 2 types of units: active and reserve. Active would be your typical standing army, but cost a lot of maintenance. Reserve would be like the levies you would call upon in times of war, and wouldn't cost anything besides a reduced normal fee until they are raised to active duty. Reserve units would also take a full turn to raise from reserve to active, while active duty units are already active and can be used the turn they are bought.
However the high maintenance will also discourage wars without good reason. I may also incorporate manpower somehow, since I liked how LH used it in IOTHF, but I don't want to make this too complicated to keep track of. If I do use it it will serve as another reason besides maintenance to keep as much of your population at home working the fields as you can, as thats what your nation depends on.
Naval units will likely utilize the same active/reserve approach.
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2008
- Messages
- 14,928
Flat expansion isn't very fun. The problem is that it can take forever for the map to fill up with flat expansion, meaning more turns of players not bordering or interacting with each other. Flat expansion was fine in the older IOTs I guess, but those games were extremely simple and had large playerbases.
Your costs don't really work. Spending a 100 income to increase army effectiveness by a 100% only works if the cost to double the size of the army is higher than the cost of this tech. One army costs 5 income. For 100 income, you could just build 20 armies. For another 100, you can build another 20, doubling the size of that force and, at the same time, having more flexibility.
Therefore, the 100 IP cost is only useful at the 40 army mark, and maybe not even then because of the fixed income. A person at war will always invest in the armies because it would take four turns before seeing the benefits of the double-effectiveness, at which point the player has probably already lost or won the war without the tech.
Espionage is far too expensive because, again, fixed incomes are not fun and haven't been used in serious IOTs for years (I made the RIOT system as a direct response to the fixed income system of IOT VI). The fact you have to spend income to start a war combined with fixed incomes means your game will lack wars, or the aggressor will always lose because the cost of starting a war is six entire armies minimum.
And there is never a reason to improve spies. The tech is simply too expensive because of fixed incomes. All the espionage mechanic will do is result in players just stealing provinces, which is the cheaper way of doing things and too effective.
I don't understand why each country has to have its own religion.
Why would establishing a monopoly result in a tax? Why would anybody who isn't a CoT owner ever send five merchants? It would cost 10 income to send five merchants, who will only bring back 3 gpt. Whereas sending four merchants cost only 8 income, and brings back 4 gpt.
This goes back to one of my biggest gripes with a lot of basic trade mechanics, and it is that you're punished trade wise for going to war. It would be like if Austria conquers Venice and all of a sudden Venice stops being a major trade and economic hub.
You really need to balance your numbers better. Sending ten merchants to a CoT costs 20 income, which will net you only six gpt. At 9 merchants, you get 8 gpt and that costs 18 income only.
The profitability of sending merchants already hits a snag once you hit 4 merchants, because the only way to do better in the market is to go the totally-doesn't-make-sense route of preparing for the jump. If you have four merchants, you have to immediately jump to seven. Otherwise you're losing money.
Why would anyone ever place an embargo? The max income someone can make from a single CoT is 18 income. The cost to embargo is higher than the max possible income. Realistically, the most anybody would have in a competitive CoT is 4 merchants, meaning the cost of an embargo is five times higher than the target was bringing in anyway.
The target loses only $4 for his trouble. You lose $20. It will take six turns before the target actually suffered higher losses than you did.
So why would you embargo someone?
You must pay a flat 20% of your income, but your income is fixed at 25 except from trade, which is so broken that you're likely only generating 4x income from it max, with x being the number of CoTs you're active in and assuming you actually reach 4 merchants in each. If the number of players in your game is reduced, such as through war, income goes down for everybody because the invader doesn't usurp the market value of the defender for some reason.
Why would anyone go to war? There is absolutely nothing to gain. Even if you conquer all of Europe, you will have gained nothing of value.
TECHNOLOGY is a HUGE factor in your progression.
each technology awards you with bonuses so, unless you want to go down, invest here.
technologies and techtrees; unlocking a techtree means paying a sum of your income. It's small, but it exists. After unlocking the techtree, each technology must be bought in the order you see them, so if you want one of them, you must first get all the ones before it.[/QUOTE]
There are a lot of things wrong here relating to balance. The military tech tree is useless because war is pointless, and the only thing I saw that was useful at any point was the tech that doubles your fixed income.
There is no reason to expand, attack, or do anything because no matter what, your neighbor will have the same income. Why bother? You're actively hurting yourself to be aggressive. It costs 80% of your fixed income to lobby an embargo that will probably only slightly hurt your target's income. It costs 20% of your income to go to war. It costs your entire income for a year to actually engage in espionage.
So basically you've already claimed spots that most players would want and they're all Godmode Stus.
Bowsling makes a good point that a game doens't have to be realistic and please everybody, but nothing about this ruleset is pleasing or fun. Maybe there are a few players that might find the prospect of fixed income and no growth potential fun, but I don't know those players personally.
If you add an AC component, the game will die in four days.
I've seen games fail because they were formatted poorly, or written with poor English. I've seen games not even get off the ground because of disagreement with mechanics. The game that was voted the worst IOT in the three years of this game was a game that violated common sense in its ruleset.
Players want fun, engaging, and dynamic, something you really can't get from being too arbitary. It is possible to handwave some things. You can even handwave away balance in a game. What you can't handwave, however, is progression or a sense of growth in a game.
Unequal starts are fun, do make things interesting, and Cold War IOT's random system of selection were not shining examples of what unequal starts should be. On one hand, if a game has engaging internal mechanics to make playing a large blob as fun as playing an OPM, it works, but if a small country is relatively weak in every aspect versus a player who just happened to luckily get selected, it isn't so much fun. The differences between super powers and majors wasn't big. The difference between majors and regionals wasn't big. However, the difference between two adjacent ranks in your system is quite big and the rewards aren't given out on merit, but by an RNG.
It you give a bad player, and I mean bad skill wise and not in terms in what they would do with the power, the empire, expect things to collapse.
A game without hard mechanics will market to a very different set of players than a game with hard mechanics, and this thread is dedicated to hard mechanics.
That would actually work better.
Spoiler :
I actually liked that, but it wouldn't work for a game that isn't set in the industrial era.
What is a commerce focused economy and how is it difference from the implied serf system in the game?
Actually, it is very simple to do with Excel.
The reserved would be the levy.
That's basically how the system worked anyway. Small standing armies, if any standing armies, with a large amount of levies that you didn't want on the march when it was time to plant and harvest crops.
WhiteRobber
Twinkle twinkle Wunderbar
will post a mostly-balanced and improved ruleset in a few days. I wil remove certain limitations, but also some features. I want to keep it simple, while still having a good map.
And will change the existing nations.
And will change the existing nations.
WhiteRobber
Twinkle twinkle Wunderbar
ChesterIOT
Spoiler for map
Spoiler :
Spoiler for map of existing NPC nations:
Spoiler :
NPC nations: Connaught, Brittany, Holstein, Genoa, Tunisia, Athens, Dobrogea, Antioch, Pskov, Nogai.
A map of Europe. Sounds simple, right?
Rules?
1) Everyone starts with max 20 provinces, who must have a land connection to each other. So you can be a big round blob or a thin line from Venice to Mecklemburg, as long as nothing interrupts you. Every island is on it's own. If you're coastal, you can also have some islands, but still in the limit, and not too far from your original province (like, if you're Aragon, you can get the Baleares, but no Sardegna. Only exception is Iceland, which is in reach from the northernmost Scottish provinces and all of Norway's coast.
2) Each year (turn), everyone gets to spend 50 Points. Points can be changed into money, at a rate of 1 Pt. = 10 EP. Points can also be exchanged into Tech Points. Tech points are used to get technologies. 1 tech point = 10 Points. With Income points, you can buy armies.
Armies cost:
1 Infantry - 2 EP
1 Cavalry - 4 EP
1 Artilery - 6 EP
Infantry has a power of 1, Cavalry has a power of 1.5 and Artillery has a power of 2. The combined power of your armies is both the “health” and the “damage” of your armies in battle. Having more inf/cav/art than the enemy gives a 10% bonus to the total power given by that category.
NOTE: Artillery works at full strenght only when it is the attacker. When defending, artillery has a power of 1, just like infantry.
3) Trade; each nation has a Center of Trade (CoT) as long as it exists. If the country is conquered, no more CoT. Sending a merchant to a CoT anywhere costs 2 Points. Your CoT has already full merchants in it. ( 20 - thats the max number of merchants a nation can ahve in a trade center). Each merchant brings 1 Point per turn.
4) Religion: be either Christian or Muslim; your choice. Further religious divisionsa re useless, as Religion is only a stat, which receives different bonuses from different techs.
Expanding you territory: Expansion is easy: as long as a land is adjacent to you, you can take it ( one of the technologies allows taking over land that’s 2 provinces away).
TECHNOLOGY is a HUGE factor in your progression. Spend Tech points to get the technologies. Each technology costs 1 Tech point.
Each technology must be bought in the order you see them, so if you want one of them, you must first get all the ones before it. Each tech can be bought only ONCE, except those who state otherwise.
NO MORE THAN 6 TECHS CAN BE BOUGHT EACH TURN, NO MORE THAN 2 OF EACH TECHTREE PER TURN. So, you can max 2 techs from each techtree per turn, max 6 techs total per turn.
Spoiler for Techtrees
Spoiler :
Battles:
Each army, wether Inf/Cav/Art, can fight only one battle per turn.so it’s good to specify how many of each unit type to send to each of your enemies. If you don’t specify the exact number, I will spam your Inbox. After each military victory, you can discuss peace this way: 1) the winner may ask for land/troops/religious conversion/ Points/EP. 2) The defeated humbly offers whatever he has elft to not be completely conquered.
Also, if your nation get pwned, and destroyed, you can rejoin, just as if you were a new player. Just not in the same place.
The size of the nation is also important. While not counting the actual number of provinces, if a player feels big enough, he may ask to be promoted to the next tier.
Each tier is named according to the religion.
Sheikdom / County - small size (no bonuses) - starting size ( 0-30 provinces)
Emirate / Duchy - medium size ( adds 15 Points per turn) - ( 31-55 provs)
Sultanate / Kingdom - big size ( adds another 15 Points per turn) - (56-85 provs)
Caliphate / Empire - HUGE ( adds another 20 Points per turn) - (86+ provs)
Expand, kill, screw people up.
Also, the name of your nation is unimportant. As long as you acknowledge you're human and have only medieval weaponry, (around year 1200), I do not give a pony on your nation's name.
Any questions?
christos200
Never tell me the odds
Rise and Fall of Empires:
"Si vis pacem, para bellum" - "If you want peace, prepare for war"
Setting:
"Si vis pacem, para bellum" - "If you want peace, prepare for war"
Setting:
The setting of this IOT is in the Ancient Era, around 500 B.C, althought the world will not be the same as ours, as the players will create nations and history. This IOT will try to simulate the Ancient World in a realistic and fun way. This a serious IOT, so Ponystan or nations that I believe that are ridiculous will not be accepted.
Joining:
In order to join, you have to claim three (3) provinces, tell me which is your capital province, write a history (even a short one) and give me the names of your two (2) Generals (see section on Generals). Only then your Nation is considered to exist.
Economic Points:
Economic Points or EP's are the currency of the IOT.
Population:
Populations (or Pop. for short) is the people of your nation, the ones who actually work, fight in the army and so on. Each provinces gives you 5 Pop. So, if you have give provinces, you have 25 Pop. The Pop. can be used in a lot of ways. They can farm, build buildings or join the army. Without your Pop., you nation is nothing.
Farming:
Farming is the most important economical activity. In order to farm, just assign as many Pop. you want to Farm a province. Example: Have 3 Pop. to Farm Chad.
Each Pop. you have to farm gives you 5 EP's per turn. So, in our example, farming in Chad would give me 15 EP's every turn.
Buildings:
Building are build by the Pop. In order to build a building, you assign the numbers of Pop. that is required to build a building for the number of turns that are required. Once the building is complete, the pop. that was building the building is again free for you to use.
Here is a list of buildings:
City:
Turns: 3
Pop.: 4
Use: Gives you 5 more Pop. in the province you build the city.
Walls:
Turns: 1
Pop.: 2
Use: Can be build only once in each province and gives + 10 Defence to the defending army in that province.
Port:
Turns: 2
Pop.: 3
Use: Can only be build once in each province, and that province must be coastal. Gives you an extra of 5 EP's per turn. Also, it allows you to build Naval Units.
Military Academy:
Turns: 6
Pop.: 5
Use: Can be build only one and will be in your capital province. Once this is build, you have 20% chance every two turns that a General is created.
Units:
Units have attack and defense. Units also have upkeep. If you do not pay the Upkeep, your unit is disbanded. So, watch your economy. You can also disband an army by yourself and the Pop. will be free to use.
List of Units:
Spoiler :
Generals and Ability:
Armies needs Generals to lead them, so they can fight better. All nation start with 2 Generals, but Military Academies can produce more. Each General starts with Ability 1. Ability can greatly affect a battle.
Every time you win a battle you gain 10 XP. Each Ability needs a certain amount of XP to be unlocked.
Ability 1: All Generals have it from start. It gives + 5 attack and defense to all Units under the Command of the General.
Ability 2: It needs 20 XP. It gives + 10 attack and defense to all Units under the Command of the General.
Ability 3: It needs 40 XP. It gives + 15 attack and defense to all Units under the Command of the General.
Ability 4: It needs 80 XP. It gives + 20 attack and defense to all Units under the Command of the General.
Ability 5: It needs 120 XP. It gives + 25 attack and defense to all Units under the Command of the General.
Ability 6: It needs 160 XP. It gives + 30 attack and defense to all Units under the Command of the General.
Note: Each time you update an Ability, you have again 0 XP. For example: If you manage to gain 80 XP and gain Ability 4, then you have again 0 XP and you will have to gather 120 XP to go to Ability 5.
Battles:
Will be decided by six factors: Attack, Defense, Ability, Walls, Numbers and Luck.
When you attack a province, your Units over all number must be higher than the over all number of the defending Units in the province. Luck is RNG. It is from 1 to 5. Ability is only when your General leads your army. Wall gives + 10 Defence to the defenders of a province. Numbers, well numbers you have.
Example:
Spoiler :
Expansion:
All netrual provinces are defended by 10 Peasant Armies.
Map:
Spoiler :
Spoiler :
So, what does everyone thinks?
Thorvald of Lym
A Little Sketchy
What, no Americas?
WhiteRobber
Twinkle twinkle Wunderbar
I'd join yours, Christos.
The population in each province is... well, low. Maybe have it to be 7?
The population in each province is... well, low. Maybe have it to be 7?
Civ'ed
I ain't gotta explain a thing
Let's jump on the IOT ruleset bandwagon with what might be more complicated than the Agatean Bureaucracy!
On a forum, drifting towards the sun on 4 elephants on a turtle, is an IOT. This IOT is...
Also note: THE WORLD IS FLAT, YOU CAN'T SAIL AROUND THE WORLD
Joining:
Choose a province on the mapp
choose a race of government:
Choose a government:
Choose a majority religion: (mandatory for Theocracies)
The reason for all of this is that, as silly as the Disc is, it does have some rules. Starting with Fairies being parasites.
The region you pick has an effect on the rest of the game for you in the form of traits:
ECONOMY
Economy is really simple really, Each province generates 2 Ankh-Morpork Dollars. You can build various things with these:
Armies: 2 AM$, .5 AM$ upkeep.
Special buildings:
each region has its own buildings. These can be built in provinces and all cost 10AM$ except for the Agatean one. When built they each give a 10% chance of firing off a region-specific event.
Counterweight - Terracotta Golem Factory
Fourecks - Brewery
Islands - Great Net
Evil Empire - Überwald Castle
Dwarf Evil Empire (if you're dwarves) - Great Lifts
Klatch - Pyramid
Sto Plains - Bloody Stupid Johnson construction
Octarine Country - Dragon Hatchery
Hubland - Nac Mac Feegle Houses
Southern Klatch - Temple
Expansion:
Expansion works regionwise as such:
Counterweight - Subjugation/Conquest (Conquest within Counterweight)
Fourecks - Colonisation
Islands - Conquest
Evil Empire - Conquest
Klatch - Conquest/Peaceful Annexation/Subjugation
Sto Plains - Peaceful Annexation
Octarine Country - Peaceful Annexation
Hubland - Conquest
Southern Klatch - Conquest/Subjugation
What do these mean?
Subjugation - the province becomes an NPC vassal of yours and provides half of it's income to you. Depending on location, NPCs expand too! These can later be "annexed" if you so wish
Conquest - Ye olde IOT mechanism.
Colonisation - one turn the province provides half of it's income, the next it suddenly a real province. You can only have three colonies.
Peaceful Annexation - Like conquest but you KEEP THE ARMIES!
Each province costs 2 AM$. For Agateans, this is the price inside Agatea. Outside the Agatean trait applies.
Armies and battle
Each nation has a stat for Offense/Defense/Intrigue, and starts at 3/3/3. These can be increased or decreased through events.
EVENTS:
Events are random things. They happen to your country. They come in 4 forms:
Narrativium: Something will happen. It will involve a princess and a dragon. Maybe. these are normal random events.
Octarine: Magical events, like an order being canceled. If you think that's bad look at Fourecks.
Science: Science marches on, and these events represent that by improving your military or cashflow.
Region: once you build a special building, you have a 10% chance of getting one of these and the number goes up to 60%. These are region-related. as in Pyramid time overflow. Or something.
...
That might be very complicated.
Mapps:
On a forum, drifting towards the sun on 4 elephants on a turtle, is an IOT. This IOT is...
DISCWIOT
Standard IOT rules apply, along with a really strict ban on what is acceptable at join. See below.Also note: THE WORLD IS FLAT, YOU CAN'T SAIL AROUND THE WORLD
Joining:
Choose a province on the mapp
choose a race of government:
Choose a government:
Choose a majority religion: (mandatory for Theocracies)
Spoiler list of acceptables :
The reason for all of this is that, as silly as the Disc is, it does have some rules. Starting with Fairies being parasites.
The region you pick has an effect on the rest of the game for you in the form of traits:
Spoiler :
ECONOMY
Economy is really simple really, Each province generates 2 Ankh-Morpork Dollars. You can build various things with these:
Armies: 2 AM$, .5 AM$ upkeep.
Special buildings:
each region has its own buildings. These can be built in provinces and all cost 10AM$ except for the Agatean one. When built they each give a 10% chance of firing off a region-specific event.
Counterweight - Terracotta Golem Factory
Fourecks - Brewery
Islands - Great Net
Evil Empire - Überwald Castle
Dwarf Evil Empire (if you're dwarves) - Great Lifts
Klatch - Pyramid
Sto Plains - Bloody Stupid Johnson construction
Octarine Country - Dragon Hatchery
Hubland - Nac Mac Feegle Houses
Southern Klatch - Temple
Expansion:
Expansion works regionwise as such:
Counterweight - Subjugation/Conquest (Conquest within Counterweight)
Fourecks - Colonisation
Islands - Conquest
Evil Empire - Conquest
Klatch - Conquest/Peaceful Annexation/Subjugation
Sto Plains - Peaceful Annexation
Octarine Country - Peaceful Annexation
Hubland - Conquest
Southern Klatch - Conquest/Subjugation
What do these mean?
Subjugation - the province becomes an NPC vassal of yours and provides half of it's income to you. Depending on location, NPCs expand too! These can later be "annexed" if you so wish
Conquest - Ye olde IOT mechanism.
Colonisation - one turn the province provides half of it's income, the next it suddenly a real province. You can only have three colonies.
Peaceful Annexation - Like conquest but you KEEP THE ARMIES!
Each province costs 2 AM$. For Agateans, this is the price inside Agatea. Outside the Agatean trait applies.
Armies and battle
Each nation has a stat for Offense/Defense/Intrigue, and starts at 3/3/3. These can be increased or decreased through events.
Spoiler :
EVENTS:
Events are random things. They happen to your country. They come in 4 forms:
Narrativium: Something will happen. It will involve a princess and a dragon. Maybe. these are normal random events.
Octarine: Magical events, like an order being canceled. If you think that's bad look at Fourecks.
Science: Science marches on, and these events represent that by improving your military or cashflow.
Region: once you build a special building, you have a 10% chance of getting one of these and the number goes up to 60%. These are region-related. as in Pyramid time overflow. Or something.
...
That might be very complicated.
Mapps:
Spoiler :
Thorvald of Lym
A Little Sketchy
I haven't read enough Pratchett to play this properly. 
NedimNapoleon
Weird Little Human
Im thinking of starting a 2013 Modern IOT (not clear if fresh start). Do I have interested players?
Civ'ed
I ain't gotta explain a thing
I haven't read enough Pratchett to play this properly.
It should be playable without having read all the Pratchett books.
arya126
Squad Leader
It should be playable without having read all the Pratchett books.
Never even heard of this series of books this is apparently based on, but the IOT itself looks extremely interesting, even if it seems a tad bit too in depth when it comes to traitors and races and such.
Thorvald of Lym
A Little Sketchy
Yeah, but I won't do as good a job.It should be playable without having read all the Pratchett books.
Anything for you, goyim.
NedimNapoleon
Weird Little Human
Slide it.
SamSniped
DJ Goodboye
I would come out of hiatus for a good NedimIOT.
Bowsling
Deity
Hiatus is the new black in IOT. 
Bowsling
Deity
Like most cool IOT things, CivO and I made it cool (although he did it first).
