Is anyone else frustrated with the war map?

[fortydayweekend]

forty, please give me some credit... first you explain to me how rivers work and now you suggest i should bring more troops. come on now

Lo siento, I meant it more in the spirit of sharing ideas with everyone reading rather than telling you specifically how to play

So far, the players that finish the Mars mission around turns 75-80 all follow the same blueprint. Would be interesting see if you find different strategies to early finishes @NombreyApellido.

Is this a very specific strategy (eg map, player numbers etc) or is it possible to do with any settings? Assuming this is on HK level?

 

[NombreyApellido]

triggering end of game with the mars project

 

[fortydayweekend]

triggering end of game with the mars project

Yep but is this a strategy that works on Normal map / 6 players / Pangaea / normal world settings on HK level? Or does it need isolation or anything specific?

 

[Siptah]

From what I‘ve read it should be possible on all maps. There are two AARs on Reddit that detail how they’ve done it (sorry, I don‘t have the links here). The exact turn numbers certainly require some luck (in mammoths and AI neighbors), but the ballpark should be achievable in most games.

 

[NombreyApellido]

Yep but is this a strategy that works on Normal map / 6 players / Pangaea / normal world settings on HK level? Or does it need isolation or anything specific?

why would it? all there is needed is a map with no missing resources

 

[Taefin]

I’m guessing it involves using settlers. I don’t remember if it’s the era 3 or 4 city model but one let me immediately build sub 1-turn districts. I’d hope some of these strategies are considered as the devs balance the game.

 

[MrRadar]

I'm not sure where to ask this, so I'll try here.

Is it intended gameplay that embarked land units can attack military ships? I've had my first AI seaborne invasion attempt and it was embarked Hunnic hordes swarming my patrolling cogs and carracks at sea and shooting them to pieces. If the ship survives the round it can one-shoot one transport ship, but that's of little consolation. Unless you can find a safe-ish bay to hide and hug a friendly coast, the ship won't survive another round.

Ranged land units such as musketeers and crossbows also one-shoot embarked hordes, but when they fill half of the combat map and you happen to have only a couple of ranged, it may take some doing. Luckily for me, I had built 1st level wall in my island city that they tried to siege and it wasn't difficult to capture their flag during the first three rounds of battle. However, after a couple of repelled siege attempts, 5 of my military ships are no more, but there are still a few stacks of the Horde remaining. Kinda sucks the way my "wooden wall" turned out to be more of a "thin paper screen", and against troop transport ships only on top of that.

 

[fortydayweekend]

I'm not sure where to ask this, so I'll try here.

Is it intended gameplay that embarked land units can attack military ships? I've had my first AI seaborne invasion attempt and it was embarked Hunnic hordes swarming my patrolling cogs and carracks at sea and shooting them to pieces. If the ship survives the round it can one-shoot one transport ship, but that's of little consolation. Unless you can find a safe-ish bay to hide and hug a friendly coast, the ship won't survive another round.

Ranged land units such as musketeers and crossbows also one-shoot embarked hordes, but when they fill half of the combat map and you happen to have only a couple of ranged, it may take some doing. Luckily for me, I had built 1st level wall in my island city that they tried to siege and it wasn't difficult to capture their flag during the first three rounds of battle. However, after a couple of repelled siege attempts, 5 of my military ships are no more, but there are still a few stacks of the Horde remaining. Kinda sucks the way my "wooden wall" turned out to be more of a "thin paper screen", and against troop transport ships only on top of that.

It's a tricky one, embarked units are so vulnerable that maybe they felt like they needed to give them some firepower to compensate.

Personally I'd rather it was the other way around, that embarked units couldn't shoot, but could take a few hits. They lose a turn by disembarking at any rate which is a big advantage for the side which is on land. This would also make actual ships invulnerable to embarked units and non-ranged, which seems fair.

why would it? all there is needed is a map with no missing resources

Sometimes speedrun strategies need specific features, I could imagine 'not having to fight' could be a massive advantage for a speedrun in this game given how much early resources an early war can take up. Conversely it could also include a scout rush, so would require close neighbours.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

It's a tricky one, embarked units are so vulnerable that maybe they felt like they needed to give them some firepower to compensate.

Personally I'd rather it was the other way around, that embarked units couldn't shoot, but could take a few hits. They lose a turn by disembarking at any rate which is a big advantage for the side which is on land. This would also make actual ships invulnerable to embarked units and non-ranged, which seems fair.

Back a while ago during the Beta testing, the embarked units or 'transports' were almost as strong as the warships - it was nearly impossible to repel an invasion before they reached your shores no matter how big a navy you had. They seriously downgraded the transports' factors before launch.

Historically, ALL the combat Factor of a ancient/Classical Galley full of troops or a Cog was from embarked troops - the ships were simply platforms from which crossbowmen, archers, longbowmen and early 'handgonnes' shot at the enemy to clear his decks, and then embarked melee units stormed him. Ships with their own heavy weapons didn't come around until the Caravels and Carracks.

The other side of the Hunnic Seagoing Hordes is a game I finished right after launch: a Mongol enemy who tried to invade my continent with several embarked Mongolian Horde armies - and ran into three fleets of 3 - 4 Carracks each, which one-shotted 25 Mongol embarked units. It turned out that was over half of his total army, so the subsequent 'counter-invasion' was a relative breeze.
Also, while the AI loves carpeting the sea with embarked units, it still almost never builds regular warships. In a half-dozen games since launch, and Iforgethowmany test games before, I could count the number of AI warship fleets I've encountered on the fingers of one hand, with enough fingers left over to hold a fork. The AI really doesn't seem to handle naval warfare well overall.

 

[NombreyApellido]

Sometimes speedrun strategies need specific features, I could imagine 'not having to fight' could be a massive advantage for a speedrun in this game given how much early resources an early war can take up. Conversely it could also include a scout rush, so would require close neighbours.

it's mostly the same for any strong start. plenty mammoths. 30+ location for your 2 cities. a natural wonder nearby. dyes, silk, saffron

in my current run i took un-optimal hattusa when it was size 1 with 3 scouts and liberated it a couple of turns later when akkad grew out of a 32 tile i gifted to roaming greys

jumped to classical in turn 28 with 5 cities at the same time INF read negative and took persians for +2 city slots

building Giza on a cluster of four science tiles

no unit loss. only one curiosity warrior apart from scouts

 

[Taefin]

Agree they don’t handle naval warfare well, but about half the AI I’ve encountered build one full size naval stack or cogs/carracks/manowar. Unfortunately most naval warfare is muskets shooting hapless cogs and carracks out of the sea as they try to defend cities.

 

[Victoria]

I could count the number of AI warship fleets I've encountered on the fingers of one hand, with enough fingers left over to hold a fork. The AI really doesn't seem to handle naval warfare well overall.

A couple of days ago I came across a nasty fleets that chased a scout cog down and killed it.
It was fun trying to locate that fleet later with frigates and torpedo boats and it put up a half decent defence but not to human level.
So they do have fleets there Boris but I have not played huge amounts of naval play to say how much.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

A couple of days ago I came across a nasty fleets that chased a scout cog down and killed it.
It was fun trying to locate that fleet later with frigates and torpedo boats and it put up a half decent defence but not to human level.
So they do have fleets there Boris but I have not played huge amounts of naval play to say how much.

Quite possibly the AI's naval play has been 'buffed' since Release: in the pre-release test games, it was non-existent, and I've only played about 5 games since release into the mid-game Ages when fleets really become possible - and simply haven't seen many instances of AI war fleets compared to endless numbers of embarked land units in fleet/army-sized stacks.

 

[Victoria]

It is a personal thing for me, but war is too fiddly. fickle and damn cheaty.
I started setting up my attacks and then declared war before I engaged anything, suddenly 8 Mongol stacks converged on me during my turn, destroying all my plans.
That and the fact that HK frigs up my PC every now and then has made me decide to see what Civ is like again.

clearly this is not a turn based game.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

It is a personal thing for me, but war is too fiddly. fickle and damn cheaty.
I set start setting up my attacks in my turn and declare war before you engage anything and 8 Mongol stacks suddenly converge on you.
That and the fact that HK frigs up my PC every now and then has made me decide to see what Civ is like again.

If it's any consolation, Louis XI of France considered war much too chancy a proposition and battle a completely random gamble, which is why he preferred diplomatic dirty tricks and got the nickname "Spider King".
Humankind catches a lot of that beautifully, but I'm not entirely sure that's a good thing, and certainly not for everyone - unlike Civ, going to war in this game occasionally gives me butterflies in my stomach because there's no predicting what might happen next.

 

[Taefin]

unlike Civ, going to war in this game occasionally gives me butterflies in my stomach because there's no predicting what might happen next.

Oh yeah! Especially when you are trying to leverage a new army and declare on a rival without knowing the size/composition of their army. Seeing stacks of next era units pop out of the fog is probably my favorite emotional experience of HK so far.

 

[fortydayweekend]

Quite possibly the AI's naval play has been 'buffed' since Release: in the pre-release test games, it was non-existent, and I've only played about 5 games since release into the mid-game Ages when fleets really become possible - and simply haven't seen many instances of AI war fleets compared to endless numbers of embarked land units in fleet/army-sized stacks.

I've run into sizeable stacks but they're always just hanging around the AI cities.

 

[7daysofwar]

My biggest thing with war in Humankind is that when I decided to engage on war on the enemy and I try to attack one of those stacks. That for some reason they will always attack first, even when they stand in place and I decide to attack them. Especailly since that means that half your troops died because they attack first.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

My biggest thing with war in Humankind is that when I decided to engage on war on the enemy and I try to attack one of those stacks. That for some reason they will always attack first, even when they stand in place and I decide to attack them. Especailly since that means that half your troops died because they attack first.

I consider this a Bug. You move next to an enemy stack (or even Bears, on occasion!) and it immediately attacks, even though it is still nominally your turn. You are stuck in a battle as the defender, even though you were the one moving to contact - who did I put in charge of that stack, Generalissimo Pacifist Maximus?

Now, if there were, say, a Civics choice related to Militancy that made your armies, or maybe certain Units, Hyper Aggressive so they could/would do this - even when it was a lousy idea, like when you have a great defensive position but instead charge out of it - I would be completely happy with it. There were groups and civs and factions and cultures that idealized the nutters that like to charge headlong into the enemy regardless of the odds, and by no means were all of them 'barbarians' (hint: groups as different as Samurai, Berserkers, Gaeseti, 'Ga-Pa' Swedes and Knights just for a starting list). In general, some more 'Civics' or Culture Choices that affected your digital populations' concept of battle would be a nice DLC addition, and would serve to further 'customize' your Faction.

 

[NombreyApellido]

use the attack button on the army menu

it doesn't work on sieges through, AI will sortie even before a siege is set if forces are closely match

also, these are simultaneous turns at least nominally. the player is just too slow compared to the AI