Is "Beyond the Sword" dead?

[EdCase]

I'm curious how the only worthwhile SP game can be called dead?

Especially since there are a slew of modders out there...if Firaxis posted "no more patches for you" right now, I would place a sizable bet that any "gamebreakers" would be fixed and posted by the modding community within a month.

Again -a SP game is only dead when YOU (or I) decide to stop playing.

 

[troytheface]

totally disagree with the OP. Great expansion- having lots of fun.
They put out two patches and tech support updated me drivers. Not to be callous to the complaint that the OP has fixated on- sometimes we do that with stuff

 

[vodlaian]

How have people jumped to the conclusion that firaxes is done with BTS? It's obvious that lots of bugs need to be fixed/optimizations need to be made, not to mention the individual bugs with some of the scenarios. Now that they don't have to worry about deadlines, they can work at their own pace and actually take their time to fix things. When you have a date just over the horizon that the game MUST be finished by, often time from bug fixing and optimizing is sacrificed. Just look at the SDK, you can tell that some of the code has been rushed.

 

[unikey]

Most companies I know have given up the practice of releasing patch change lists before the patch. Maybe a day or so before is okay, not any more than that. Mentioning the occasional fix is fine, but not more.

I understand how everyone wants info and how everyone wants communication, but these things aren't so easy. Giving info might turn out to be a bad idea, and developers are never free to say everything they may want to - not to mention that any post seems to result in an avalanche of "will you fix this..." messages

Only in the IT world do you get away with this, They have sold the product or the right to use a product depending on the license and if it doesnt work as advertised it might get fixed in the future!! thats bad enough but when they then deliberately break an otherwise working system with there copy protection it really gets my goat I'm not singling out firaxis as they not the worst by a long way but can you image buying a new car and two weeks later getting the dealer to fit a better stereo which results in your car no longer starting and then being told its non refundable and we wont communicate with you with any kind of eta for a fix

I know the two are only similar and I know the company I work for are just as bad but it still winds me up

 

[Underdawg]

Only in the IT world do you get away with this, They have sold the product or the right to use a product depending on the license and if it doesnt work as advertised it might get fixed in the future!! thats bad enough but when they then deliberately break an otherwise working system with there copy protection it really gets my goat I'm not singling out firaxis as they not the worst by a long way but can you image buying a new car and two weeks later getting the dealer to fit a better stereo which results in your car no longer starting and then being told its non refundable and we wont communicate with you with any kind of eta for a fix

I know the two are only similar and I know the company I work for are just as bad but it still winds me up

They get away with it because people keep buying the products. If you don't approve of this practise that much then stop buying their products (not necessarily talking about you)

 

[Red Patch]

M2TW is dead, but CIV has worked fine for me. It even runs fast late game 1/2 the time.

 

[jdurg]

I haven't experienced any bugs with BtS, and I would HARDLY call the game dead. Are there bugs out there? Obviously yes. Are the bugs problems with the game code? Some of them yes. Many are problems with hardware/software configurations on various people's systems. (When Civ4 first came out the movies would crash horrifically whenever they loaded, or would stutter immensely. It turns out that it was just a problem with my video card and drivers in regards to some feature that wasn't well documented and created issues when the movies played).

The thing is, you can say "There's a bug here, fix it", but until you've actually tried to correct bugs in software you really have no idea just how difficult that is. Unless it's a simple typo, correcting a "bug" takes quite a bit of time to find all of the code that relates the "bug". This is why it is so critical to fully comment source code so that when years later someone has to update something you've written, they'll know what is doing what. Civ4 has been out for two years now, I believe. There have been a lot of people working on it and writing code for it. While there are always the best intentions to keep it neat and clean, that doesn't always work out.

Each bug that gets fixed has to be recompiled (unless it's something in an externally grabbed file) in order to test. That can take some time. You also need to go and re-test it on numerous different platforms to make sure that your changes didn't inadvertently make compatibility issues. (Even though you might not have touched anything that would, sometimes a slip of the finger at some point can create an unintended error).

All this testing needs to be done for EACH "bug" that is attempting to be fixed. All the while, the programmers have other jobs as well. They don't just work on Civ Exculsively. They have other projects they code for and you can't just go from coding one thing to jumping right into another.

In addition, there's the issue of money. These coders don't do this for beans. They need to get paid to do this and in many cases the company needs to update contracts for patches and whatnot, or hire outside help. It costs money to update code properly then test it.

If you want to see some bad games that truly were broken and never got appropriate patches, look at half of what EA puts out or the High Heat Baseball Series from 3DO. Granted, that company was struggling, but they would flat out state "Yes, we know there are severe bugs in this game but we are not going to patch it." Their reasoning was they didn't have the resources to do it and financially were not willing to bring in more people.

 

[toft]

Most companies I know have given up the practice of releasing patch change lists before the patch. Maybe a day or so before is okay, not any more than that. Mentioning the occasional fix is fine, but not more.

I understand how everyone wants info and how everyone wants communication, but these things aren't so easy. Giving info might turn out to be a bad idea, and developers are never free to say everything they may want to - not to mention that any post seems to result in an avalanche of "will you fix this..." messages

I perfectly understand why they wouldnt want to post something like that here or elsewhere, but why not a static page on firaxis.com/support...

I know its oneway communication, but thats more than ok by me.

 

[lionheart]

You know, I was wondering about this as well yesterday.. I was walking my dog (when I do my best thinking) and when I was thinking about the ridiculous fight animations after the latest patch, I thought to myself: "how did they do this pre-internet?" And then: "Oh, that's right; games were almost spot-on the moment they entered the stores, because there was (almost) no possibility for a patch.."

The internet seems to have made game developers a bit more lazy (or hurried) and I must say it's hurt the reputation of games more than it has benefited them I feel. Every single game in the Europa Universalis series needs a patch to fix major issues, a patch for Black and White 2 came out the day it was released and CivIV is still lagging behind, even though there are still some serious problems (or new problems have arisen due to the latest patch)..

I understand people are probably working hard on the patch as we speak, but a little bit more info would definitely be appreciated. I was playing a very nice game that suddenly became unplayable due to an official patch! That doesn't sound right..

 

[Spearthrower]

You know, I was wondering about this as well yesterday.. I was walking my dog (when I do my best thinking) and when I was thinking about the ridiculous fight animations after the latest patch, I thought to myself: "how did they do this pre-internet?" And then: "Oh, that's right; games were almost spot-on the moment they entered the stores, because there was (almost) no possibility for a patch.."

Those games were also extremely simplistic compared to now and did in fact have huge uncorrectable bugs themselves. Yes, they all worked superficially as they were easy to test.... but instead, the thousands of customers found exploitable loopholes and had crashes where it was impossible to get support.

Really, the idea should be the other way round.... these days you get an incredibly more complex product than before AND you get ongoing support!!

Also, for others comparing it to other products, I'd really like to see some valid comparisons.... comparing software to cars, electrical equipment etc is all ridiculous for any number of reasons. The most outstanding one is that if a customer buys a car, it is always going to be used on a road - the "playing field" is entirely level...... with software there are potentially endless permutations of hardware, compatibility, drivers, OS, security software, generally poorly tweaked and ill-used computers, all of which are way beyond the control of the software developer - yet somehow, they are expected to accomodate everyone! People conveniently forget all that.

 

[Arlborn]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232292

here you go folks.

Alexman is from Firaxis by the way. He said at 21 of July: . "The hang will be fixed for the patch".
Did it get fixed?

 

[ferenginar]

I have only played the standard game not any of the scenarios, and only at normal speed. I have not noticed any bugs, certainly not game breaking bugs. It is possible that there are game balance issues, but these are often a matter of opinion or playing style.

BTS is in my opinion a fantastic expansion, and I can only applaud Firaxis for their work.

 

[MrCynical]

I haven't yet hit a game breaking bug in the official version. There are some irritating ones, and some serious balance issues, but nothing that can't be worked around. Solver's patch is a decent stop gap for some points, but is even more unbalanced in some respects (Corporations in Solver's patch are close to game-breakingly unbalanced).

As has been said on numerous occasions, at least some clue on when the official patch will show up would save enormous quantities of irritation. The pathetic 3.03 patch has not improved most people's opinion of Firaxis here, since it had virtually no useful content, caused additional bug, and was blatantly untested. It would be very simple to give at least a hint, if not an exact date as to when an official patch would show up, plus some idea of what will be in it. Are we talking days, weeks, months? Solver has already done about 80% of the work on his own, but unfortunately has let the one show stopper into the unofficial patch with regard to corporations, so arguments that the bugs take too long to fix do not hold water. Is it being thoroughly tested that is taking the time? 3.03 doesn't seem to have been tested at all, and it had virtually no content. What's the hold up? Firaxis does need to improve its communications. Any answer beats the infuriating silence we keep getting.

 

[unikey]

They get away with it because people keep buying the products. If you don't approve of this practise that much then stop buying their products (not necessarily talking about you)

In general terms the software industry and IT get away with products that in any other industry would be recalled,refunded or fixed. Especially if the company deliberately break the product (securerom) and many people have stopped buying their products although i'm not sure if piracy is worse in the software industry or the music/film industry

Without breaking the law it is impossible for me to get BTS working on vista as I get the please insert the correct CD error, I cant return it to the retailer as the box has been opened and firaxis havent even bothered to respond in 4 weeks which means i've paid £30 for a coaster and even though i have switched back to XP i'm still using the mini image as it is more stable than running the original but that isnt an option for the majority of users

Simon

 

[Solver]

Only in the IT world do you get away with this, They have sold the product or the right to use a product depending on the license and if it doesnt work as advertised it might get fixed in the future!! thats bad enough but when they then deliberately break an otherwise working system with there copy protection it really gets my goat I'm not singling out firaxis as they not the worst by a long way but can you image buying a new car and two weeks later getting the dealer to fit a better stereo which results in your car no longer starting and then being told its non refundable and we wont communicate with you with any kind of eta for a fix

I know the two are only similar and I know the company I work for are just as bad but it still winds me up

I am sorry, you're talking as if this is the first piece of software you've ever bought.

Yes, this s how software development works. You buy the rights to use a product (no license gives you the "product", at best you're getting unlimited rights to use, distribute and change it), and that product has a number of deficiencies. Really big products from really big companies with really big budgets may, if you're lucky, have fewer and smaller problems.

Now, I'm all in favour of communication normally, but if I were in charge at Firaxis, I wouldn't give any ETA for a patch either, except to say that it's almost done a few days before the anticipated release.

 

[toft]

In general terms the software industry and IT get away with products that in any other industry would be recalled,refunded or fixed. Especially if the company deliberately break the product (securerom) and many people have stopped buying their products although i'm not sure if piracy is worse in the software industry or the music/film industry

Without breaking the law it is impossible for me to get BTS working on vista as I get the please insert the correct CD error, I cant return it to the retailer as the box has been opened and firaxis havent even bothered to respond in 4 weeks which means i've paid £30 for a coaster and even though i have switched back to XP i'm still using the mini image as it is more stable than running the original but that isnt an option for the majority of users

Simon

I have to defend Vista and BtS a little here. Im playing on Vistax64, without any problems except the bugs (or balancing-issuis that some of the blind fanatics would call it) that everyone have if they play marathon.

It might just be a hardware related problem you have. Do you have the UK or US version? Mine is the UK, which apparently works fine under Vista...

 

[MrCynical]

Now, I'm all in favour of communication normally, but if I were in charge at Firaxis, I wouldn't give any ETA for a patch either, except to say that it's almost done a few days before the anticipated release.

I have to ask why on this one, Solver? As is clear, the lack of communication is causing considerable irritation. What's wrong with giving us a clue? Can we expect a patch in the next few days, weeks, months? Few things get people as angry as an ETA of "when we feel like it" as this keeps everyone constantly waiting.

There is also a growing issue that a month has now passed. You yourself have demonstrated that you can fix most of the bugs in far less than that time on your own, and to a degree which seems fine on most configurations. Why is it taking Firaxis, who presumably have far more resources that you personally, more than a month to do something than an individual has mostly done in a matter of days? Comments about testing do not impress me, since the evidence of the 3.03 patch indicates that the patches are not in fact being tested. In any case, your patch has been thoroughly tested here, and so should provide the necessary inforrmation for most bugfixes.

 

[RedRalph]

Its true Solver. While you are getting the brunt of a lot of the anger, thats just because youre closest to a Firaxis rep here, and you appear to be the only one trying to fix the game. Its hard for us to see why you can do this as per requests on an internet chat board and a multi million dollar company cant even let us know when to expect the game to be fixed

 

[Solver]

I have to ask why on this one, Solver? As is clear, the lack of communication is causing considerable irritation. What's wrong with giving us a clue? Can we expect a patch in the next few days, weeks, months? Few things get people as angry as an ETA of "when we feel like it" as this keeps everyone constantly waiting.

Yes, I understand that. But that irritation is nothing compared to the irritation of a date not met. In a patch, you want to fix issues. So if you say "the patch will be out next Monday" and then find some big last-minute issue that you need an extra day to fix, people will absolutely raise hell on Monday evening.

I'd say it's just not a good idea to give such ETAs until you're 100% sure you'll actually have it out on that date - and you can only be 100% sure a day or two in advance.

There is also a growing issue that a month has now passed. You yourself have demonstrated that you can fix most of the bugs in far less than that time on your own, and to a degree which seems fine on most configurations. Why is it taking Firaxis, who presumably have far more resources that you personally, more than a month to do something than an individual has mostly done in a matter of days? Comments about testing do not impress me, since the evidence of the 3.03 patch indicates that the patches are not in fact being tested. In any case, your patch has been thoroughly tested here, and so should provide the necessary inforrmation for most bugfixes.

You know, if an official patch had what my patch does, it'd be a pretty crappy patch. I haven't fixed some bugs because I don't have the resources to do so. And the official patch shouldn't limit itself to bugfixes. It needs better balance changes. My corporation fix is a hotfix - it works, but it's not that great. You need to find the right balance.

And yes, if a patch changes more things, it does need testing. 3.03 didn't really change anything. A patch with numerous bugfixes, AI changes and balance tweaks needs testing, and that's what has to happen - otherwise, in the end, everyone would be upset. Then you have things such as translation into 4 languages and a hardware-oriented QA session.

Its true Solver. While you are getting the brunt of a lot of the anger, thats just because youre closest to a Firaxis rep here, and you appear to be the only one trying to fix the game. Its hard for us to see why you can do this as per requests on an internet chat board and a multi million dollar company cant even let us know when to expect the game to be fixed

Don't forget that I am not limited in what I can do/say by the Firaxis legal department, 2K, etc. Firaxis is a big company, which is wholly owned by an even larger company - so there are many levels of management and many other complexities. I'm also limited in what I can say/do by an agreement, but I am still an individual and not part of the corporation.

Rest assured that, should I get hired by them, you would probably hear less from me

 

[toft]

Yes, I understand that. But that irritation is nothing compared to the irritation of a date not met. In a patch, you want to fix issues. So if you say "the patch will be out next Monday" and then find some big last-minute issue that you need an extra day to fix, people will absolutely raise hell on Monday evening.

I'd say it's just not a good idea to give such ETAs until you're 100% sure you'll actually have it out on that date - and you can only be 100% sure a day or two in advance.

ETA = Estimated Time of Arrival - ergo it's not a precise date. And even if an patch would be delayed, and some info would be given concerning this, then I think most people would be most understanding.