Is Byzantium OP?

[KayAU]

I'm not usually one to shout "OMG, overpowered" for every new civ, but...no, I actually won't do that for this one either. Byzantium looks decently strong, and they have some nice synergies going. That said, there are many strong civs, and Byzantium's strength does take some time and setup to fully manifest. The extra Great Prophet point is the one you will notice first, once you get your first Holy Site. It is nice and useful, but not in any way crazy. Then comes the +3 combat strength from your holy city. Nice, but not super powerful. Further strength is gained from converting other holy cities, but that will take some time to set up. Spreading religion through military victories is a good ability, but not overpowered, and very possible to counter. Full damage against walls require religious conversion to work, it too can be countered. Free heavy cavalry requires you to build districts, so it takes time, there's a cost associated with it, and there's a limit to how much you can do it.

Gran Colombia is overpowered. Byzantium is just a strong civ with a nice, synergistic design, in my opinion.

 

[_hero_]

There's a good deal of setup involved in Byzantium becoming a powerhouse. We've seen "snowball" civs before and Byzantium in many ways looks like a domination snowball. The more cities you get->the more free heavy calvary you can get-> the more chances to kill enemy units and spread your religion-> the more damage your units do-> the more cities you get. However, none of their bonuses really help them until the snowball starts other than the faster Great Prophet generation. I suppose you could say the Dromon is an early bonus that can be utilized to trigger the snowball as well, but I think some civs like Gran Columbia have a much more straightforward path to domination.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Hmm. I wonder what happens if you take over a city with an Entertainment Complex. Would you get a free heavy cav?

 

[KayAU]

Hmm. I wonder what happens if you take over a city with an Entertainment Complex. Would you get a free heavy cav?

I wouldn't think so. Didn't they say you'd get it when the district/buildings were constructed?

 

[Sostratus]

Hmm. I wonder what happens if you take over a city with an Entertainment Complex. Would you get a free heavy cav?

Not AFAIK. If greece takes over a theater square, they don't get a free envoy.
Now, what happens when you repair a captured pillaged EC that transforms into a Hippo... Perhaps there is an exploit here (pillage EC buildings, capture city, repair for MORE TAGMA)

Alternatively, put Hippos in disaster prone areas and just watch the Tagma printer go brrrrrrrr

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Not AFAIK. If greece takes over a theater square, they don't get a free envoy.
Now, what happens when you repair a captured pillaged EC that transforms into a Hippo... Perhaps there is an exploit here (pillage EC buildings, capture city, repair for MORE TAGMA)

Alternatively, put Hippos in disaster prone areas and just watch the Tagma printer go brrrrrrrr

There's a Nika riot joke in there somewhere.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Not AFAIK. If greece takes over a theater square, they don't get a free envoy.
Now, what happens when you repair a captured pillaged EC that transforms into a Hippo... Perhaps there is an exploit here (pillage EC buildings, capture city, repair for MORE TAGMA)

Alternatively, put Hippos in disaster prone areas and just watch the Tagma printer go brrrrrrrr

*Whistles nonchalantly and places 3 hippos adjacent to Mt. Vesuvius *

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Let's compare it with a Civ with standard average power --Spain. Spain is around average, in power of the existing Civs.

Both Spain and Byzantium need a religion to make their bonus useful. Spain has no bonus towards establishment of a religion, Byzantium has a free +1 on all Holy Sites. Considering the Holy Site itself only provides +1, this is a 100% increment. If you build a shrine then this is a 50% increment. So this +1 accelerates 50-100% towards establishing a religion, this shall not be underestimated. Spain has nothing to do so it is 50-100% slower than Byzantium towards establishing a religion. Byzantium wins.

Second, for combat bonus. Spain has a +4 towards different religion, while Byzantium has +3*Holy Site transferred. Initially it has +3, but whenever you conquer a Holy City you can easily transfer it into your religion, so this can be easily stacked up to +6, +9 or +12. While Spain has maximal +4, and this only applies to Civs with a religion. Byzantium wins.

Thirdly, for spreading the religion. Conquistador fully converts a city when capturing a city, while Byzantium gains +250 when eliminating a unit. 250 is not a small amount, as much as killing an apostle. By killing 3-5 units Byzantium can easily spread its religion to enemy cities before siege. While Conquistador just provides some work a simple Inquisitor can do. Byzantium wins.

Fourthly, for UU. Conquistador gets +10 when stacking with a religious unit, while Tagma provides +4 to adj units & does 100% damage to walls if attacking a same-religion city. Both bonuses are of similar strength in conditions and power. (Stacking a religious unit with every Conquistador is as strict as converting an enemy city.)

However, the 100% damage applies to not only Tagmas but also other cavalries, especially the Cavalry and Cuirassiers, and also Tanks & Helicopters. Byzantium wins.

For other bonuses, Treasure Fleet and Mission seems rarely useful, while Hippodrome is extremely powerful. (Makes Tagme and Cuirassiers, or Tanks much cheaper), and also a good bonus is that you don't have to provide oil for tanks if you get them from Hippodromes. (TankDrome?)

Dromon is also a powerful UU given proper conditions. Byzantium wins again.

Compare Byzantium vs Spain and we get win--win--win--win--win. How can this Civ not be overpowered?

 

[AlanC9]

Well, maybe Spain just sucks.

 

[UWHabs]

Well, maybe Spain just sucks.

Yeah, I mean, I don't think anyone would argue that Byz won't be an upper level civ. They're definitely better than Spain, but the real question is whether they're better than the GC of the world. And to be honest, I don't know if they are, mostly just because a solid portion of their bonuses rely on religion, it forces you down a specific path early. They have a bonus to getting a religion, and double HS points is pretty strong, but they still need to get there and build those holy sites. The downfall to Byzantium is that they need that early religion to maximize their bonuses, which in many cases, will simply make them worse than some of those other civs.

That being said, if they get a religion, they're incredibly powerful. They're getting a ton of amenities, a ton of free units, and those units fight stronger most of the time. It's like a combination of the free units from Scythia, Mongolia's combat bonus, heck throw in that the Tagma is kind of like a mini-GG, and they're truly going to be a fierce opponent. The real question for me is whether that holy site bonus is going to be enough to routinely secure them that religion that they need to dominate the battlefield, and then whether they can make enough use of religious beliefs and their conversion bonuses to compensate for that later. It certainly is enough to make them upper tier, but whether it's enough to get them God Tier, will need to play them out to see for sure.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

Yeah, I mean, I don't think anyone would argue that Byz won't be an upper level civ. They're definitely better than Spain, but the real question is whether they're better than the GC of the world. And to be honest, I don't know if they are, mostly just because a solid portion of their bonuses rely on religion, it forces you down a specific path early. They have a bonus to getting a religion, and double HS points is pretty strong, but they still need to get there and build those holy sites. The downfall to Byzantium is that they need that early religion to maximize their bonuses, which in many cases, will simply make them worse than some of those other civs.

Early religion doesn't mean weak. Religions are pretty strong now, especially after the religion belief patch. Russia always gets an early religion, are they weak?

 

[Sostratus]

Compare Byzantium vs Spain and we get win--win--win--win--win. How can this Civ not be overpowered?

I think when they made byzantium they basically wanted to make a better spain.
I personally define OP as something with little counterplay (or where the best counter is itself.) Realistically there is nothing anyone can do to stop the Byzantines from getting a religion short of bad luck. So we will just assume they have +3.
Mongolia gets the same bonus for mounted units, so that alone is hardly OP. But even stripping out the siege ability, the main threat of Byzantium is them unlocking Divine Right and swarming you with a bunch of 55/5 Tagmas.

Let's stop for a second and think about that. All they have to do is make a holy site for their religion, and then get divine right. Tagmas standing next to each other is how to end up with +7 for 55 total. So this is basically guaranteed. We are talking about a civ that gets Malon Raiders an era early for free. Putting up a religious defense is necessary or those mounted units will crush you. As I have written before, Byzantine players will just camp tagma out of range, and once the city is converted, blitz it down in 1 turn using their high movement.

Your only good option is to rush them in the classical before they get the Tagma. So at least they are weaker than Nubia or GC there.

For what it's worth, the Colombians have knights that are just as good (53/6 instead of 55/5) except not free, but GC can also abuse swords a lot more effectively too. I am not factoring Great generals into the equation for either side, only the CGs for Colombia.

The downfall to Byzantium is that they need that early religion to maximize their bonuses, which in many cases, will simply make them worse than some of those other civs

Even if religion is deleted from the game, if someone said "free knights with a +4 aura" I would tell you that civ is going to be a powerhouse. Arabia consistently ranked high on lists in vanilla solely off the mamluk being amazing. Free units is a really flexible bonus too - it mitigates the early expenditure for a holy site and lets you shift hard production for other infrastructure if you need it. (Also, for how cheap Hippos are, building them just for the +3 amenities is a great choice.)
They are also one of the few civs that exploit a heavy cav rush which don't need to worry about iron or oil access.

 

[Aurelesk]

Even if religion is deleted from the game.

Even to that, we do not have a full answer. For example:

1. Should the religion founded by Byzantium be the majority religion of Byzantium (half cities +1) to benefit from the bonuses?
2. Could Byzantium benefit from the bonuses when the majority religion of Byzantium is from a foreign civilization?

If the answer is 'Yes' at the 1st point, there is some initial delay. You need to spread your religion to your own empire before thinking to enjoy the bonuses, making the powerful Byzantium's ability harder to use (one way to check is to see how Poland culture bomb works for spreading religion).
If the answer is 'Yes' at the 2nd point, you could harvest the effort of the foreign leading religious civilization that spread it to the world, and use that extra Combat Strength to eradicate that civilization and prevent them to win.

 

[Loerwyn]

I think they are going to be OP in the sense they have some very strong and generalised focuses (I'd have to play them and look into their abilities and units more), but in terms of NFP Civs they seem pretty much on the level. I would like to see the older Civs get a bit of a rework to bring them up to the level of strength and power of some NFP Civs, but I know that won't happen

 

[Lord Lakely]

I mean the tactic for Byzantium seems to be Rush Astrology and early Holy Site, buy the shrine (+3 GPs should be enough for religion), build an army using Agoge and Maneuver, engage in early skirmishes as you get your campuses up (or build an early wonder for theatre squares). Then use the Hippodromes for a Tagma time push and roflstomp everyone.

Straight as an arrow.

 

[Sostratus]

I mean the tactic for Byzantium seems to be Rush Astrology and early Holy Site, buy the shrine (+3 GPs should be enough for religion), build an army using Agoge and Maneuver, engage in early skirmishes as you get your campuses up (or build an early wonder for theatre squares). Then use the Hippodromes for a Tagma time push and roflstomp everyone.

Straight as an arrow.

Tagmas also buff your existing army, and I anticipate tagma+crossbow will be a very tough Nut to crack. And until divine right they all get +3 from your holy city anyways.

So even building agoge units isn’t a waste of your hammers, really. And hippo generated chariots should be a pure gold upgrade into Tagma.

And in case you motley crew of fanatics forgot, Tagmas boost religious units too. So you can help out in friendly or neutral territory with that religious combat.

 

[Onii-chan]

Would you rather want Byzantium to be like Spain or Spain to be like Byzantium? Seems pretty obvious to me that the latter would be more interesting

Look, the whole OPness discussion is only relevant because so many of the older civs just suck in comparison to many of the new ones. But instead of using that as a reason for mega-nerfing civs like Byzantium, I'd much rather see civs like Spain get buffed up to this level instead. It's more interesting when the civs have more things that separate them and make them unique as that leads to playstyles that stand out from each other. If all civ abilities across the board were to be made weak then every civ would feel pretty samey and then the game as a whole just becomes more repetitive

 

[Loerwyn]

Would you rather want Byzantium to be like Spain or Spain to be like Byzantium? Seems pretty obvious to me that the latter would be more interesting

Look, the whole OPness discussion is only relevant because so many of the older civs just suck in comparison to many of the new ones. But instead of using that as a reason for mega-nerfing civs like Byzantium, I'd much rather see civs like Spain get buffed up to this level instead. It's more interesting when the civs have more things that separate them and make them unique as that leads to playstyles that stand out from each other. If all civ abilities across the board were to be made weak then every civ would feel pretty samey and then the game as a whole just becomes more repetitive

The issue with that is the base Civs are held by everyone, and they would have to balance to the expansions, DLC and NFP. If they did it the other way, i.e. balance the NFP Civs to the base game level, it would probably require less balancing. I think. They would have statistics on who owns what but I would wager the majority of NFP owners own all the expansions and DLC.

 

[Sostratus]

Look, the whole OPness discussion is only relevant because so many of the older civs just suck in comparison to many of the new ones

It’s power creep but I think it stems more from the devs basically getting better at designing Civs to fit the meta over time, and even they will want to push the envelope. Design is only fun when it’s at the limits.
There are also a lot of vanilla civs that are quite strong- some of them aged to fit well with the meta, some did not. Let’s not forget that the Aztecs were available on release and the Australians were launched a few months later. And got nerfed right away!

Vanilla civs tend to be a little less focused than DLC civs, although I agree a lot of them are a bit underpowered (although in most cases they didn’t get outclassed by DLC, they were always weak.)

 

[Lord Lakely]

And in case you motley crew of fanatics forgot, Tagmas boost religious units too. So you can help out in friendly or neutral territory with that religious combat.

that's a pretty valuable boost yeah, as Byzantium doesn't rly have inherent bonuses towards maintaining a faith economy, meaning they'll have fewer religious units out there.

Still though, the main way of spreading the religion is by declaring war on a neighbour, wait for their units to attack you and kill them. the boost to religious units is nice but not rly relevant until you've stabilized your religion with tenets that provide reliable amounts of faith.

and then ofc you can go fully berserk with the Grandmaster's Chaper.