Is Civilization VI a Bowling Simulator?

[agonistes]

I don't buy this argument.

and it is also still unclear whether Bowling is not also a strategy game

I agreed with you in my previous post. As I said:

Because, after all, even in a first-person shooter game, you diagnose/develop/execute, just rather quickly.

By definition, ANY game COULD be called a strategy game. Any decision-making process could be called strategic. But NOT every game IS called strategic, and not every decision-making process is considered strategic. Therefore, there is a waterline. Generalized strategic process removed, what is the waterline for a game being considered strategic? And wasn't it first used to simply inidcate a game in which there were more decisions to make, and less repetition in game play?

Now, I don't know what the waterline is for the universe at large, but I DO know that in Civ I can make a great number of decisions about how to achieve one of a number of victories (another decision), and I know that my turn 20 of one game is very much unlikely to involve the same conditions, let alone the same decisions, as my turn 20 of another game. Isn't that the essence of a strategy game?

Some of you may be thinking, "well, that's not true (or, that's not me), there aren't that many decisions, the conditions never change." If you are thinking that, I suggest that you are not fully aware of all of the decisions you are making, and nor are you recognizing all of the conditions. You may implement the same strategy and tactics every game, but that does not make the game non-strategic.

Don't equate strategy with complexity or difficulty, because the standard for both rises as intelligence rises. The best strategies are usually neither complex nor difficult.

Using logic alone seems to be way too convenient to accurately describe what definition fits and what doesn't

Are you proposing another method?

 

[Oleary]

I agreed with you in my previous post. As I said:



By definition, ANY game COULD be called a strategy game. Any decision-making process could be called strategic. But NOT every game IS called strategic, and not every decision-making process is considered strategic. Therefore, there is a waterline. Generalized strategic process removed, what is the waterline for a game being considered strategic? And wasn't it first used to simply inidcate a game in which there were more decisions to make, and less repetition in game play?

Now, I don't know what the waterline is for the universe at large, but I DO know that in Civ I can make a great number of decisions about how to achieve one of a number of victories (another decision), and I know that my turn 20 of one game is very much unlikely to involve the same conditions, let alone the same decisions, as my turn 20 of another game. Isn't that the essence of a strategy game?

Some of you may be thinking, "well, that's not true (or, that's not me), there aren't that many decisions, the conditions never change." If you are thinking that, I suggest that you are not fully aware of all of the decisions you are making, and nor are you recognizing all of the conditions. You may implement the same strategy and tactics every game, but that does not make the game non-strategic.

Don't equate strategy with complexity or difficulty, because the standard for both rises as intelligence rises. The best strategies are usually neither complex nor difficult.




Are you proposing another method?

Good points all however my frame 5 will be likely be different in most games. I think Ryika's on to something.

Really just bumping this hilarious topic. Thanks for the smiles y'all.

 

[Auramagma]

Well, Civ is clearly a strategy game. The term has been around for awhile, and it essentially refers to games that involve a large and varied number of optimization decisions.

Your bowling analogy is fitting for any single decision, but not for the collection of decisions that make up the strategy in Civ.

Ok, consistent strategy involves collection of decisions, which contribute to the common goal. In Civ it means that these decisions should lead to satisfying victory conditions. That path might be complex, but should consist of clear and consistent steps, which follow one another.

In CiV there are too many features, which do not contribute to any specific strategy of winning the game. They are simply there as bonuses. You can't make serious strategy of acquiring maximum number of bonuses possible. And that's what CiV pushes you to do.

Therefore, bowling analogy is accurate to an extent as it means that in CiV you have to focus on your momentarily hit and misses and not on the game strategy.

 

[ProMeTheus112]

And you play your strategy against your opponents', a dynamic game of strategic decisions and counter decisions, you evolve your game plan depending on your opponents game plan evolution until someone wins then strategy game ends and management/tactics may make the finish, whereas bowling you pretty much play alone against the quills and compare the result.

 

[Ryika]

Are you proposing another method?

We should all think about our feelings on the issue and then have a debate about them to come to a conclusion.

I very much -feel- it's a bowling simulator, but I cannot use logic to describe where that feeling is coming from, it just comes from deep inside me somewhere.

So my personal opinion would be left out in a discussion that is solely about logic. So that would not be fair - my opinion should have just as much merit as the facts that you concluded by using logic, because after all we're both humans.

 

[Staler87]

We should all think about our feelings on the issue and then have a debate about them to come to a conclusion.

I very much -feel- it's a bowling simulator, but I cannot use logic to describe where that feeling is coming from, it just comes from deep inside me somewhere.

So my personal opinion would be left out in a discussion that is solely about logic. So that would not be fair - my opinion should have just as much merit as the facts that you concluded by using logic, because after all we're both humans.

I really don't think your being specific enough here. There are two types of bowling (ten pin and seven pin). I think if we really, seriously, want to consider civ VI a bowling simulator we need to figure out which type of bowling simulator it is.

Civ IV was definitely more of a ten-pin bowling simulator. You could curve the ball (your civ) to your desire and you just had more 'pins' to think about. It was such an accurate simulator I had to put on a goofy over-sized shirt just to play it.

Civ V rebooted the bowling simulator idea and went more of the seven pin root. Less things were considered and you couldn't put any spin on the direction your bowling ball was going. you just had to shoot straight down the alley and hope that you hit a strike. I didn't really feel compulsed to bring out my big goofy shirt so it couldn't have been that good.

I will be very, very interested to see how civ VI reboots bowling sims? Will it be the next level of bowling realism? Will it re-invent bowling to be eleven or eight pins (although these numbers may be complicated to arrange in aesthetically pleasing patterns I'm sure Ed could figure it out). So far I'm thinking I may have to bring the bowling shirt out for what is appearing to be the ultimate in bowling sims - civ VI.

I'm actually shocked that a site titled civ fanatics could overlook the question of seven vs. ten pin bowling.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

I've been reading quite a few threads lately, and realized that there seems to be a disconnect between what is basically two types of people. Those who claim Civ is a "strategy game", and those who claim that it's something else.

Now, it is clear that there are strategical elements in the design of Civilization VI. You can for example choose what to build, and, if it's a district, wonder, or Improvement, where to place it, but that's where the problems with the definition come in. Is it really "strategical" to place a district, or is it not more like you're throwing a bowling ball into a mass of pins, aiming to get a strike?

This may sound weird at first, and initially I dismissed the thought myself, but really, placing districts is not "strategical". You want to get the most out of a district, so you place it where you get the highest yield. You may factor in some other things such as "Is this place not better for another district?" etc, but in the end it's really not that strategical. You're literally rolling the ball into the center of the pins to clear them all (aka to get the highest yield). Any district you build after that will inevitably not get as good as a spot (assuming they compete for a similar ideal spot) which is, for the most part, like you're throwing a second ball at the pins that have not been removed by your first attempt. (assuming you didn't get a strike, which is the equivalent of having a second spot that is just as good for the second improvement.)

That's some pretty strong evidence, but the similarities don't even end there. Between each round (of constructing districts) you're likely to be contacted by other leaders, and they may have good or bad things to say, based on your performance, or based on your characteristics. That too is VERY close to what happens during bowling, when you're teasing each other while you're waiting for the bowling machine to spit out your bowling ball ("for the city to grow enough and unlock the next district") so you can bowl again.

I think it is safe to say that, while I'm not entirely sure whether Civ fit the definition of a Bowling Simulator enough to officially change its genre, the similarities are staggering. And in my personal opinion too obvious to be a coincidence.

As a semi-pro bowler, the sport is way less random that you're implying here. I'm also certain that this will be true about Civ VI.

 

[Staler87]

As a semi-pro bowler, the sport is way less random that you're implying here. I'm also certain that this will be true about Civ VI.

Do you ten-pin or seven-pin bowl?

 

[shaglio]

Do you ten-pin or seven-pin bowl?

What is this seven-pin you speak of? I've only heard of ten-pin, candlepin, and duckpin.

 

[Bibor]

A bowling simulator would require the playing field to be always the same, which is not the case. Your conclusion is, unfortunately, false. Why can't you just be hyped for Civ6? Must we learn of your feelings coming from deep inside you? Can't you just record a rant and post it on youtube like everyone else?

 

[rastak]

A bowling simulator would require the playing field to be always the same, which is not the case. Your conclusion is, unfortunately, false. Why can't you just be hyped for Civ6? Must we learn of your feelings coming from deep inside you? Can't you just record a rant and post it on youtube like everyone else?

That's awesome.

 

[Staler87]

A bowling simulator would require the playing field to be always the same, which is not the case. Your conclusion is, unfortunately, false. Why can't you just be hyped for Civ6? Must we learn of your feelings coming from deep inside you? Can't you just record a rant and post it on youtube like everyone else?

What about dust in the bowling lanes? Big mounds of dust could be simulated mountains requiring you to tactically place your bowling ball.

 

[Abraxis]

As a semi-pro bowler, the sport is way less random that you're implying here. I'm also certain that this will be true about Civ VI.

Thankyou, I needed a laugh.

 

[redwings1340]

A bowling simulator would require the playing field to be always the same, which is not the case. Your conclusion is, unfortunately, false. Why can't you just be hyped for Civ6? Must we learn of your feelings coming from deep inside you? Can't you just record a rant and post it on youtube like everyone else?

Not really. When you bowl, you always have different opponents (civilizations), and different venues (worlds). The terrain you start out on is different based on what location you bowl in, and terrain is destiny, deciding how you bowl hard and what angles you want to choose. Are you going disco-bowling (flood plains), or are you doing a boring bowing place (grasslands). You can even start in an outlandish hilly bowling area, which adds complexity to the game that most bowling areas don't even have. I'd argue that civ VI is not just a bowling simulator, but a next generation bowling simulator, giving you possibilities of bowling that are only currently done in video games, but might be the next trend.

It's looking super exciting!

 

[Bibor]

Not really. When you bowl, you always have different opponents (civilizations), and different venues (worlds).

Your argument actually makes a lot of sense. Different venues and opponents would constitute "the randomness" I thought bowling was lacking. Actually, I know very little about bowling, and I invested only minimal effort any effort to think about what the OP said.
However, if you don't mind, I'd rather not admit my own mistake, I'll let the OP do that. I'm intelligent enough that I can play mind games until the OP eventually gives up.

 

[redwings1340]

However, if you don't mind, I'd rather not admit my own mistake, I'll let the OP do that. I'm intelligent enough that I can play mind games until the OP eventually gives up.

That's reasonable, after all, if you make a mistake, the only correct course of action is to double down on it and repeat it enough until people are convinced its right, and attack anyone who disagrees with you. I have every confidence that you'll be right eventually with that attitude!

 

[Craig_Sutter]

In Canada, we have 5 pin bowling... a far superior game.

 

[Bibor]

In Canada, we have 5 pin bowling... a far superior game.

In Croatia, we have a 3 pin credit card failsafe and 2 pin SIM card protection. Clearly Croatian bowling is superior to Canadian, as we can have bowling with less pins if we leave our phones at home. Also, your beaver to human population ratio is just amazing.

 

[Tatran]

I'm intelligent enough that I can play mind games until the OP eventually gives up.

Are you sure?

And why a bowling simulator and not a sex game? Isn't it all about to explore and reveal the secrets of the map and to find juicy spots to erect your settlements?

 

[Red Menace]

In Croatia, we have a 3 pin credit card failsafe and 2 pin SIM card protection. Clearly Croatian bowling is superior to Canadian, as we can have bowling with less pins if we leave our phones at home. Also, your beaver to human population ratio is just amazing.

thats some low pin bowling right there, if you think the beaver to human ratio is insane you sould check out Vermonts human to cow population ratio.