Is Democracy still effective?

What do you think about Democracy?

  • It's great, we don't need something new!

    Votes: 17 19.3%
  • It's pretty good, could use some new technologies to advance foward, though.

    Votes: 24 27.3%
  • Somewhat good, but it's somewhat lacking.

    Votes: 15 17.0%
  • Undecided/Neutral/Ambigous/I've never lived in a Democracy in my life

    Votes: 5 5.7%
  • Democracy is not too bad, but a better way to rule would be pretty good if done well.

    Votes: 9 10.2%
  • Democracy is not good anymore. We need something better.

    Votes: 4 4.5%
  • Democracy is obsolete. Make a new kind of governament.

    Votes: 7 8.0%
  • I'm a goddamn commie.

    Votes: 7 8.0%

  • Total voters
    88
I agree that Democracy has done better than most other means of governing civilization but I'd still argue it's been a failure. It's failed to prevent wars, prevent pollution, prevent an extinction event. It's failed to bring happiness to it's people despite advancing wealth (IIRC happiness peaked in the 80's in America anyway). It was a good idea in theory (though I liked the Philosopher King one even better) but hasn't worked out very well in practice. At the end of the day Democracy is just the tyranny of the majority and the biggest business these days is manipulating majority opinion.

I think everything will be afailure if your expectations are so high. In my opinion democracy has greatly arcieved to prevent Wars , prevent Pollution against he health of the public in comparison to what would happen in a different regime but anyway you can't blame the institution in this case but the attitude of the people. Democracy does have a way to afect the attitude of the people against war so i guess one could blame democracy for not have the same effect with polution . It does have some effect in regard of the public having some awareness.


It was a good idea in theory (though I liked the Philosopher King one even better) but hasn't worked out very well in practice.

I disagree , It was good in theory and absolutely great in practice.

her King one even better) but hasn't worked out very well in practice. At the end of the day Democracy is just the tyranny of the majority and the biggest business these days is manipulating majority opinion.

Fighting against Manipulation of the majority , is a game it is necessary to play in the field of democratic goverments but there is really no other option than to do it.
 
Political dynasties would indeed mean oligarchy, but I'm not sure if the problem is all that acute in the US. I mean, you have the Kennedys, the Bushes and maybe the Clintons, but - forgive my ignorance - who else are there?

Look at the original Bush administration and trace them back, these guys have with a few exceptions been major political players in previous administrations. The Rockefeller's have been active politicians for generations.

About the blurring of the line between the politician and the CEO, that is merely an indication of plutocracy. And plutocracy has existed with democracy right from the latter's inception. In the past, only people with sufficient private means of income such that they did not need to work much (usually wealthy landowners) could devote themselves entirely to politics. Plutocracy is indeed heading towards 'rule by the few', and it did result in oligarchy in ancient Greece. However, in the modern state there are usually non-plutocratic politicians that are difficult to remove, since the system ensures their livelihood.

Plutocracy can also work hand in hand with Oligarchy. Certainly it is a thin and indistinct line. But the root of these meanings are quite old, given the size and scale of the American system, I don't really think the pressense of a few hold outs and the constant in and out of, often irrelevant, elected officials can really be an argument that an Oligarchical structure is not present.

What do you mean by 'inherent'? And does it matter? If something always comes attached with another, does it actually matter if the latter is not 'inherent'? It is simply a fact that the former is associated with the latter.

Because it is 'arguably political' and in some cases, certainly is can be so. However, distribution of resources is not necessarily political. The state can, and has, take no part in the distribution of resources and leave it entirely on the economic end. It is not always attached, therefore not inherent. Where as the distribution of resources is always attached to economy.

Well, it is actually meant to be democratic. But this doesn't even fall under the Marxist definition of politics, since politics only happens when one class is oppressing another :crazyeye:

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying Democratic rule is incapable of oppression?
 
In my opinion democracy has greatly arcieved to prevent Wars
What about a democracy/representative democracy lowers the likelihood of fighting wars?

To me this comment seems like you believe that it's not so much that individual citizens want a war, but that the Big Bad King/Dictator/Grand Poobah(s) are more so. And that...ain't the case. Who fought more wars during its classical existence, Athens or Sparta? (Hint: it's not the one where the ruling entrenched socially backwards eugenically based military oligarchical dictatorship would be toppled if war went badly!) Hell, in many cases, the fact that the participatory nations were democratic/representative democratic actually made the wars longer and more devastating. Look at the Peloponnesian War, where the Athenian demos refused to give up its power and prestige despite major setbacks until the bitter end; look at the First and Second Punic Wars, when the Roman and Carthaginian Republics spent decades tearing each other to shreds, the first in a bloody stalemate and the second when first one, then the other was brought to the brink of destruction - both situations that would have had the pragmatic Hellenistic monarchs of Arche Seleukeia, Makedonia, and Aigyptos running for ink and paper for a peace treaty - and more recent times, when the French Revolutionary governments not only refused to simply die but caused the greatest destruction and political turmoil since the Thirty Years' War in attempting to spread liberty, equality, and fraternity to the rest of the world. When you can get the People behind something, they just don't stop until the fat lady sings.
 
Look at the original Bush administration and trace them back, these guys have with a few exceptions been major political players in previous administrations. The Rockefeller's have been active politicians for generations.

Plutocracy can also work hand in hand with Oligarchy. Certainly it is a thin and indistinct line. But the root of these meanings are quite old, given the size and scale of the American system, I don't really think the pressense of a few hold outs and the constant in and out of, often irrelevant, elected officials can really be an argument that an Oligarchical structure is not present.

I think more needs to happen before the USA can qualify as an oligarchy. I don't think you can quite call a prominent non-dynastic politician, say Obama, irrelevant. I think there's more reason to believe that a lot of the real power is held by the people behind the scenes in each administration than to believe that political dynasties hold an unbroken chain of rule or that they always have the final say in questions of governance.

CheScott said:
Because it is 'arguably political' and in some cases, certainly is can be so. However, distribution of resources is not necessarily political. The state can, and has, take no part in the distribution of resources and leave it entirely on the economic end. It is not always attached, therefore not inherent. Where as the distribution of resources is always attached to economy.

There has never been a completely free market, though, and I think it's safe to say that resources will always be artificially distributed to some extent.

Your definition of inherent here seems to be "equivalent". I disagree. I do think that politics is inherent to the distribution of resources, inasmuch as it is necessarily attached up to this point in history.

CheScott said:
I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying Democratic rule is incapable of oppression?

No. What I mean is the (necessary) democracy in a Communist society is not considered by Marxists to be political because there is no class oppression.
 
According to the statistics, the world is MUCh less violent and has been trending that way for the last century.

There has been no better experiment in free market vs. central planning (or democracy vs. command) than East and West Germany. When that wall fell, it was clear which system was superior. Two sides separated which started from the same base...
 
Are you assuming the Aristotelian meaning of democracy? Representative democracy is also democracy, but it is not the same as 'rule by the mob'. In fact, a mob-rule democracy easily becomes a plebiscitary dictatorship.

You can't just throw the word 'representative' in front. Democracy is used as a buzz word. Jefferson would be proud.

The United States, Brazil, Germany, and France are republics.

Japan, the United Kingdom*, and the Netherlands are constitutional monarchies.

When asked, people claim they are democracies. I know they do, but since when was the majority always right? Democracy had been historically majority rule. When something quakes like a duck, moves like a duck, and looks like a duck, don't call it a feathered democracy.

*The United Kingdom does have the weakest separation of powers, making it closest to a democracy, but it is still not one. Far from it.
 
I think we could all do with a good fascist dictatorship for 20 years or so, and then work back for democracy.
 
I think we could all do with a good fascist dictatorship for 20 years or so, and then work back for democracy.

Or we can stay away from both like the Plague.
 
Technically, the US is a republic, right?

Anyways, yeah it's effective. low corruption, accountability of our politicians (somewhat), and better than everything else out there.
 
What about a democracy/representative democracy lowers the likelihood of fighting wars?

To me this comment seems like you believe that it's not so much that individual citizens want a war, but that the Big Bad King/Dictator/Grand Poobah(s) are more so. And that...ain't the case. Who fought more wars during its classical existence, Athens or Sparta? (Hint: it's not the one where the ruling entrenched socially backwards eugenically based military oligarchical dictatorship would be toppled if war went badly!) Hell, in many cases, the fact that the participatory nations were democratic/representative democratic actually made the wars longer and more devastating. Look at the Peloponnesian War, where the Athenian demos refused to give up its power and prestige despite major setbacks until the bitter end; look at the First and Second Punic Wars, when the Roman and Carthaginian Republics spent decades tearing each other to shreds, the first in a bloody stalemate and the second when first one, then the other was brought to the brink of destruction - both situations that would have had the pragmatic Hellenistic monarchs of Arche Seleukeia, Makedonia, and Aigyptos running for ink and paper for a peace treaty - and more recent times, when the French Revolutionary governments not only refused to simply die but caused the greatest destruction and political turmoil since the Thirty Years' War in attempting to spread liberty, equality, and fraternity to the rest of the world. When you can get the People behind something, they just don't stop until the fat lady sings.


Dachspmgthe the Athenian failure of a democracy (even if it was not a total failure and our famous Pericles did play a part in it) due to some reasons has nothing to do with today.

Can you please provide me examples of this century (the 20th one , that is) , in regard to the modern world's conditions so i can take what you say seriously ?

I simply can not take any of what you have said seriosuly.

Today , Democratic regimes has the tendecy to alienate people from war. Precisely because they have deemed it more damaging than peace. WW2 also played a big reason to that.

To change that there must happen some social changes in such countries
which would move the people beliefs from being pro-peace into Pro-War. Such changes is much Fear-mongering but truth be told i consider such practices to be against the spirit of democracy and that democracies can develop into having instictive reflexive reactions against such moves that would make it less effective.

Whatever the case is , Fear mongering may succeed at giving popular support to the war , but the cost of the war is certainly going to offset such effect and Popular support of it will decline.


Remember i am talking about modern democracies. Not Athens vs Sparta where there where a thousand and one other social differences in the world one should have thought of.

For example Whatever the goverment type of Athens was , they where naturally expansionists while the Spartans wanted Isolation and no Foreigners at all influencing their state and influencing their system. Athens democracy vs The one in a kind Spartan governmental type may had led the Athenians into being more expansionists but really that is a completly usselles analogy with today's situation.

You could make one analogy with North Korea and the USA for example but not all fascist Regimes end up being Like North Korea. Which interestingly enough has the Chinese in the north and the South Koreans/Americans in the south making it unable to expand. Then again the disadvantages of such isolanist policies by North Korea greatly offset the disadvantages Wars by democratic states.

And there is no reason to believe fascist states will not expand until they can't no more and then isolate them selfs or use racist laws if they have space to do so.

I am looking at you National socialist Germany ...



Anyway you can do better.
 
Again, you do not have the right definition of democracy.
 
Again, you do not have the right definition of democracy.

Yes because the right definition is the one where democracy comes without a costitution like you implied. Anyway , you are honored to be the second one to enter my ignore list.
 
I agree that Democracy has done better than most other means of governing civilization but I'd still argue it's been a failure. It's failed to prevent wars, prevent pollution, prevent an extinction event. It's failed to bring happiness to it's people despite advancing wealth (IIRC happiness peaked in the 80's in America anyway). It was a good idea in theory (though I liked the Philosopher King one even better) but hasn't worked out very well in practice. At the end of the day Democracy is just the tyranny of the majority and the biggest business these days is manipulating majority opinion.

None of the things you mentioned are the aims of democracy, so what you're saying akin to calling microwave ovens a failure because they didn't stop the genocide in Rwanda.
 
Democracy has no affect whatsoever. We might as well be rolling a d20 to decide on what the law and punishments are (or get them from a millenia-old book... or winnie the poo). Quick, someone put Ecofarm in charge!

Ecotatership - (n.) Best govt, an organic potato/e/ in every pot
 
Democracy has no affect whatsoever. We might as well be rolling a d20 to decide on what the law and punishments are (or get them from a millenia-old book... or winnie the poo). Quick, someone put Ecofarm in charge!

Ecotatership - (n.) Best govt, an organic potato/e/ in every pot

Ecofarm/Chazumi '12, A cyanide pill in every organic potato, and a organic potato in every pot!
 
No coalition with Nazis for the Ecotaters. Anyway, check out our kickass flag (attached above). Enemies see it and crumble before us. They're all like "oh, we just want some taters too!" and so the empire grows.

Oooh, I got a little (red) face for title in post that I can't change! Awesome. What does it mean? Previously ignore was unhealthy-face (green), right?
 
No coalition with Nazis for the Ecotaters. Anyway, check out our kickass flag (attached above). Enemies see it and crumble before us. They're all like "oh, we just want some taters too!" and so the empire grows.

Oooh, I got a little (red) face for title in post that I can't change! Awesome. What does it mean? Previously ignore was unhealthy (green), right?

How can you assemble an army if you cannot assemble your flag properly!

What are you? A coalition to guide the colour-blind? :lol:


Just wait until the night of the red potatoes! :D
 
How can you assemble an army if you cannot assemble your flag properly!

Dude. Paper bowl! Splooch of ketchup obviously applied via formidable stream. All cower before the greatest flag ever. There's one tater for each of our ideals.

So, who's in?

Tater-nation

No anime or nazi people allowed.
 
There has been no better experiment in free market vs. central planning (or democracy vs. command) than East and West Germany. When that wall fell, it was clear which system was superior. Two sides separated which started from the same base...
Is this supposed to be a joke?
 
Dude. Paper bowl! Splooch of ketchup obviously applied via formidable stream. All cower before the greatest flag ever. There's one tater for each of our ideals.

So, who's in?

Tater-nation

No anime or nazi people allowed.

the Ulster will sue you though, and theirs looks cooler:
 
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