Is feminism inherently negative?

aneeshm

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The more I read about this ideology, the more I come to the conclusion that feminism is, at least today, inherently negativist, based on negation and not affirmation, and in general anti-life. A devout feminist is incapable of a normal relationship with a man, or with her society, and is incompatible with the family unit.

This movement may, once upon a time, have been a force for the good, when women were fighting for equality, but now they have degenerated into some sort of rabidly anti-men, anti-society, anti-establishmentarian farce.

When I see the syllabus for "Women's Studies", I see most of it is plain rubbish masquerading as scholarship.

Another part, which I covered in an earlier thread, is that women in the movement are denied any traditional role models. All women who were well-integrated into their society, or served as a model for later women (such as Sita, Kunti, Draupadi, et al) are called "slaves". All women who follow normal gender roles are called "slaves". Hell, all women who have a normal and happy married life are also called "slaves"! Slaves of what, precisely? The Patriarchal society, or course!



One thing which I realised is that trying to form an ideological movement around a simple struggle for equality is dangerous and ultimately self-defeating. This is because movements and ideologies have a life of their own, once initiated.

When the feminist movement started, it aimed at gender equality, or equality of opportunity. Today, in Europe and America, this equality is a reality.

But any movement, once started, acquires a life of its own. If feminism had been simply a struggle for equal rights, it would have ended when these rights were granted. The mistake that occurred was that it became an ideology, a movement.

Any movement seeks to justify its existence. The only way feminism could seek to justify its existence after they achieved their ends (of gender equality through legislation) was to expand their scope, or to somehow try to establish that their objective was not yet achieved. They chose to follow both these methods.

In the first place, feminists have expanded into what is called "Women's Studies", supposedly a study of women. I've always wondered what that really meant, because women cannot be studied as one would study a biological specimen, devoid of all context. This ensures that the "movement" remains alive.

The second method is of somehow saying that in spite of the achievement of all their stated goals, the goals haven't really been achieved, and by making more and more demands. The demands, of necessity, grow more and more absurd as time goes on, because all the reasonable ones have already been granted. Demands and cries of "Help! Help! I, the poor helpless woman, am being oppressed!" always help in rallying people around the cause.

One interesting side-effect is that this locks feminists into a sense of perpetual victimhood. What they don't understand is that this reinforces the image of women as helpless or weak far better than any amount of male domination ever could.





The moral of the story: don't turn struggles into movements. It degenerates into farce. And don't pay attention to idiots - these "studiers" of "women" will die out if not given any more attention of paid any heed.


And just to piss off feminists, from now on, I'm going to start calling myself a "Patriarchian". :D
 
I wouldn't say equality's been achieved. They're still paid less on average. Then again feminists still sometimes annoy me. When they do that I usually just tell them feminism's beginning was just some women who wanted to get on top.
 
Equality is a complicated subject. And like with most debates of this nature, the wider range of views that are presented, the better informed the general public is. Unfortunately, feminism has become so elitist that if you don't conform to a very strict set of "rules", you're not a feminist. It's not good enough to simply believe in equality of opportunity anymore.

aneeshm said:
One interesting side-effect is that this locks feminists into a sense of perpetual victimhood. What they don't understand is that this reinforces the image of women as helpless or weak far better than any amount of male domination ever could.
That's the crux of it, for me. If you stop drawing attention to your differences, people won't treat you differently.
 
The more I read about this ideology, the more I come to the conclusion that feminism is, at least today, inherently negativist, based on negation and not affirmation, and in general anti-life. A devout feminist is incapable of a normal relationship with a man, or with her society, and is incompatible with the family unit.

This movement may, once upon a time, have been a force for the good, when women were fighting for equality, but now they have degenerated into some sort of rabidly anti-men, anti-society, anti-establishmentarian farce.

When I see the syllabus for "Women's Studies", I see most of it is plain rubbish masquerading as scholarship.

I don't have to read further, because I already agree 100% ;)

Gender studies is totally un-scientific and biased field of "research".
 
Feminism is not inherently negative, in cases where women ARE genuinly oppressed (such as being denied voting rights (which were only granted to women in Swizerland in 1974)) feminism can be good. But there are some that take feminism to an extreme, mostly cultural or sepperatist feminists.
 
We need a standard definition of "feminism" before we can establish whether it is inherently negative.

If by "feminism" we mean classical feminism, meaning women deserve, and should get equal rights before the law I disagree, and I think feminism is, on the whole, a positive thing, with regrettable but almost inescapable negative consequences.

If, however, we mean the "women are better than men/I'm proud I had an abortion" "empowered" women of today type of feminism, then I agree that it is most definitely a negative force in almost every area.
 
The problem with the women claiming to be feminist nowadays is that they want men to be slaves. They don't want just equality, the want full domination by the women in every 'higher' part of society.
 
If by "feminism" we mean classical feminism, meaning women deserve, and should get equal rights before the law I disagree, and I think feminism is, on the whole, a positive thing, with regrettable but almost inescapable negative consequences.

My girlfriend is a "feminist" according to the above description. She has a double major in Women's Studies and Political Science. Honestly, despite what some in this thread want to believe most of the women she knew in those classes also subscribe to the above definition.

If, however, we mean the "women are better than men/I'm proud I had an abortion" "empowered" women of today type of feminism, then I agree that it is most definitely a negative force in almost every area.

Did she encounter women like the above? Yes - but from her experience most people in Women's Studies reject that brand of extremism. Feminists use the word "Femi-Nazi" too you know. :)
 
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When I see the syllabus for "Women's Studies", I see most of it is plain rubbish masquerading as scholarship.
What a clear-sighted person you are (about this anyway). The idea of women's studies is strange. I wonder what the point is. Is there a man's studies? Why don't we have gay studies? Redhead studies? Dwarf studies? Brighteye studies?
Deliberately narrowing one's view to only a small part of what has an effect on history, economics, or whatever one chooses to consider is stupid. A lecture about how dwarves were regarded in history might be interesting, but is pointless unless it's part of a larger course.
I wouldn't say equality's been achieved. They're still paid less on average. Then again feminists still sometimes annoy me. When they do that I usually just tell them feminism's beginning was just some women who wanted to get on top.
They're paid less because they tale time off work for children. Why should someone who ha spent more time working and has more experience be paid less just because the other has had children?
That's the crux of it, for me. If you stop drawing attention to your differences, people won't treat you differently.
Not eventually anyway. As Aneeshm tries to say, they're treading a fine line between maintaining a difference between women and anyone else and campaigning against this. They should just admit that they've succeeded and that the remaining differences are biological, and not a fault of society, or something that society can cure.
 
Feminism has caused the society to become increasingly feminine therefore leading to men not being able to display the attractive qualities they were born with in order to attract women. But there of course other aspects.
 
No, although I do think feminism as an ideology has changed for the worse.
 
Feminism has caused the society to become increasingly feminine therefore leading to men not being able to display the attractive qualities they were born with in order to attract women. But there of course other aspects.

Something else I meant to say. Feminism now sees anything that's masculine as unfair and patriarchal, even though men are different, and a previous version of feminism would have accepted that forcing femininity on men was bad.

An example might be this university, which feminists despise because exams (and apparently tutorials) favour men. Supposedly. The solution? Make it all feminine. Very fair.
 
I attended women's literature class once. We basically just did what we did in a literature class except the historical writers we were examining were women.

That's about it.
 
Feminists have the same problem as every other ideology, that much is true. Namely, anyone can claim to be a "feminist" just like anyone can claim to be "pro-democracy" or "communist" or what have you. Result: there are as many kinds of feminism as there are feminists. This gives their opponents the ripe opportunity to use what I call the "flesh man fallacy" - take a lunatic fringe person and portray them as representative of the whole movement.

My impression of feminism as a whole is more like RedWolf's.
 
Feminism, as in Equal Rights for All, is good. However, I'd prefer it if that movement had never existed. Why do I say this? For the same reason I say that it would have been better if we never had any equality- or freedom-seeking movement: Because the very existence of feminism means that either there is inequality, or inequality is perceived to be in place. No feminism at all in all the history of humanity would mean equality between the genders.
At one point, a woman calling herself "feminist" was essentially an egalitarianist with an in-your-face attitude. Today, it seems that quite a few feminists are feminists in the same way some men are sexists.
 
Of course not. Originally, feminists had the good ideal of giving everyone the same opportunity. They started falling apart when they started demanding that every single aspect must be completely the same regarding men and women even though there are obvious differences between the genders and what exactly they do and want to do.
 
Modern American Feminests stink like French Cheese{no offence to the French or their stinky cheese}. Feminism in America nowadays is seeming to want to make men inferior to women, which naturally sucks for us dudes.
 
What a clear-sighted person you are (about this anyway). The idea of women's studies is strange. I wonder what the point is. Is there a man's studies? Why don't we have gay studies? Redhead studies? Dwarf studies? Brighteye studies?
Gay studies (called Queer studies) does exist.
 
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