Is feminism inherently negative?

[mdwh]

I know plenty of women who never ask guys out, and the rest, rather than asking guys out, just rely on meetings at free places (like pubs), and sometimes complain to friends if they're not bought drinks.

Well plenty of guys including myself tend not to ask people out, more out of shyness.

So, (a) are these women feminists, and (b) is it because they believe that guys should be the ones to ask out (and not due to another reason such as shyness)? For example, if they knew a girl who did ask a boy out, would they say that was wrong?

There are sensible women around, but most still want to be bought drinks, if not dinner too.

Are these women feminists?

 

[Irish Caesar]

Wow. Lots of bitter guys in this thread.

Anyway, feminism is such a broad umbrella that there's plenty negative and plenty positive about it. As with most "movements," I think at this point the leaders are disappointed that they will not be glorified like those who made the real advances, but they'd like to try. Modern feminism doesn't face the challenges overcome by Susan Anthony et al., just like Al Sharpton doesn't have any conception of what Martin Luther King, Jr. spent his life fighting.

I am unaware of any conscious effort to hold women down; if someone could point me in the direction of one, I'd be willing to voice my opinion on it if I have one.

And finally, if y'all aren't willing to pay on dates, feminism isn't your problem.

 

[Brighteye]

Well plenty of guys including myself tend not to ask people out, more out of shyness.

So, (a) are these women feminists, and (b) is it because they believe that guys should be the ones to ask out (and not due to another reason such as shyness)? For example, if they knew a girl who did ask a boy out, would they say that was wrong?

Are these women feminists?

Many women would be shocked to hear that a girl had asked a boy out. I don't know if they're feminists, or simply blindly obedient to the cultural norms that they've been taught, but that's the way it is.

 

[mdwh]

I don't know if they're feminists,

Enough said.

I suspect you'll find that many feminists are just as much against this sort of attitude as you are. You're arguing on the same side here!

 

[Grisu]

I'd never look down on someone who hit back. You start violence, you get what you deserve, no matter how weak you are and how strong your victim.

I think my post was a bit ambiguous. With hitting, I meant the person who starts the violence, hitting back is self-defence, and as such fine in my book (as long as it's reasonable, of coures)

 

[Brighteye]

Sounds like a sensible view.

 

[LucyDuke]

There are sensible women around, but most still want to be bought drinks, if not dinner too.

What? Don't you want to be bought drinks? Don't you want to be bought dinner? There's a crucial difference between wanting it and expecting it. The girls that don't bring any cash with them aren't feminists, so they're really not relevant here.

This thread has a bunch of guys complaining about all the stupid things some women do, and that's supposed to be an argument that feminism is a bad thing. Let's clear something up: All women are not feminists. The whiny lists of "oh, she gets the kids" and "oh, I have to buy her dinner" are totally irrelevant. The perception that you're entitled to something just because of your sex is completely incompatible with feminism. Any woman who wants to be "more equal" than men is not a feminist. A feminist expects to split the bill, share equal custody, and keep her day job. She might not complain if you buy her a drink, but you probably wouldn't either.

 

[Yuri2356]

The whiny lists of "oh, she gets full legal control of the kids in nigh-all cases, regardless of the reasons for divorce, while he has to pay for the kids without getting to live with his own offspring."

Fixed a luittle something for you. Any argument can be made to sound trivial, if you oversimplify it enough.

The perception that you're entitled to something just because of your sex is completely incompatible with feminism. Any woman who wants to be "more equal" than men is not a feminist. A feminist expects to split the bill, share equal custody, and keep her day job. She might not complain if you buy her a drink, but you probably wouldn't either.

Any any national leader who starves their farmers and has secret police dissapper people off the streets is not a real Communist.

Any follower of Christ who would endorse bloddy wars in his name is not a real Christian.



There is a name for this line of thinking, the "Not a true Scotsman Falacy". If practicioners of some Ideology you're defending have done things you can't defend, say they've wandered from the true path and disown them.

Movements, and the impacts they have upon society, get perverted and twisted all the time. The ideals they started with are not what matter, it's the final effects of their actions. And right now, people are seeing a lot of negatives in this one.

 

[Brighteye]

What? Don't you want to be bought drinks? Don't you want to be bought dinner? There's a crucial difference between wanting it and expecting it. The girls that don't bring any cash with them aren't feminists, so they're really not relevant here.

But here's the rub. Many women claim to be feminist at times, or say that they support feminism, and yet also indulge in these expectations. Maybe the campaigning feminists (those who are true feminists, and not any subsect, such as ********s) stick to their principles, but I have yet to meet any but one.
This one certainly went in for double standards when it came to complaining about bias towards men but overlooking any institutional bias towards women. I never kenw her well enough to know what she thought about being bought drinks.
I can certainly think of definitions of feminism that have me supporting it. However, perhaps rather than saying that feminism is negative, we should say that using the one term to describe such a myriad of views is negative, since it leads only to confusion and misinterpretation.

 

[jeps]

My problem with feminism = I am all for equal rights. BUT most feminists go on FURTHER to say that THEY should be better than men because all men are chauvinist pigs. As long as its equal opportunity Im fine with feminism, but most go past that point.

Liberté, égalité, fraternité (et sororité?)!

 

[Stylesjl]

Liberté, égalité, fraternité (et sororité?)!

Liberty, Eqality, Fraternity (Or Soronity?)

 

[jeps]

close. Liberty Equality Fraternity (and Sorority)

Its the mixing of the French Revolutionary saying and the french feminist saying. Like I said, they just dump fraternité altogether, instead of societé or something like that.

 

[Stylesjl]

close. Liberty Equality Fraternity (and Sorority)

Its the mixing of the French Revolutionary saying and the french feminist saying. Like I said, they just dump fraternité altogether, instead of societé or something like that.

Yeah I just took a guess from wht I knew of latin based languages and that motto

 

[mdwh]

But here's the rub. Many women claim to be feminist at times, or say that they support feminism, and yet also indulge in these expectations.

I'm sure there are some women out there like that, but that doesn't have anything to do with feminism or feminists, it's just a problem with those other women who say they support something whilst actually not supporting it.

And if you've only met one feminist, perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to criticise them as a group.

 

[mdwh]

My problem with feminism = I am all for equal rights. BUT most feminists go on FURTHER to say that THEY should be better than men because all men are chauvinist pigs. As long as its equal opportunity Im fine with feminism, but most go past that point.

I don't know if it's most - I'd like to think it's just a minority, but it's hard to tell.

Just today on a blog thread I'm watching, one such radical feminist was saying how it was okay for women to say hateful things about men, because some other men say hateful things about other women.

In fact, she was so rabid in her views that one of the people she said as a man should shut up ("really oughtta shut the **** up") was actually a woman (and a feminist) - they're so extremist that anyone who disagrees is assumed to be a man, but they attack other woman and other feminists who don't share their views just as much.

 

[LucyDuke]

But here's the rub. Many women claim to be feminist at times, or say that they support feminism, and yet also indulge in these expectations. Maybe the campaigning feminists (those who are true feminists, and not any subsect, such as ********s) stick to their principles, but I have yet to meet any but one.
This one certainly went in for double standards when it came to complaining about bias towards men but overlooking any institutional bias towards women. I never kenw her well enough to know what she thought about being bought drinks.
I can certainly think of definitions of feminism that have me supporting it. However, perhaps rather than saying that feminism is negative, we should say that using the one term to describe such a myriad of views is negative, since it leads only to confusion and misinterpretation.

I agree completely with your last sentence.

Feminists in the original (and only meaningful) sense just want men and women to be treated as equally human.

I don't know if you know anyone like this, but here's an analogy. Racism is so uncool nowadays that nearly everyone claims to be a nonracist. I know more than a few people who insist that they are not racist. They say that, then turn around and make generalizations and judgments about entire races. They're obviously not honestly nonracist. Yet they insist that they are. This is parallel... a lot of women call themselves feminists when they're really not, they just see it in vogue and insist that it applies to them.

The point is that you can't decide whether a woman is a feminist based on whether or not she calls herself one. If she doesn't live up to it, she's either horribly misinformed or just plain lying. And it's not smart or fair to judge feminism by observing nonfeminists.

 

[Brighteye]

And if you've only met one feminist, perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to criticise them as a group.

The point is that you can't decide whether a woman is a feminist based on whether or not she calls herself one. If she doesn't live up to it, she's either horribly misinformed or just plain lying. And it's not smart or fair to judge feminism by observing nonfeminists.

All I see of feminists is then the rabis campaigning. If I can't judge from limited personal experience and their touted views on radio and television, I don't see that I'm being allowed to judge at all. I reserve the right to judge from what I know.
If you tell me more, I can conclude that a slightly larger proportion than before are rational, but I don't see why the people with whom I agree should be the only ones entitled to use the name, or have command of it.

 

[mdwh]

All I see of feminists is then the rabis campaigning. If I can't judge from limited personal experience and their touted views on radio and television, I don't see that I'm being allowed to judge at all. I reserve the right to judge from what I know.
If you tell me more, I can conclude that a slightly larger proportion than before are rational, but I don't see why the people with whom I agree should be the only ones entitled to use the name, or have command of it.

Well, I'm telling you that I know many feminists who don't follow their views. Obviously not all women are like this - it's not too much of a stretch to believe that many of those women will describe themselves as "feminists", because they support equal rights.

Much of the problem is that the rabid feminists shout the loudest, and are the most likely to begin their non-feminist-related-rant with "As a feminist..."

But the more normal feminists out there seem to be just as much annoyed by this, and seem to be hated by the extremists just as much as men are.

Wikipedia has some info on the many different types of feminism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism . See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-positive_feminism as an example of feminism which rebels against the stereotypical viewpoints of feminism (such as "All porn is bad" or "BDSM is abuse").