Is 'Historical Jesus' Fictional As Well?

That wasn't the case that I was making at all, though. I was suggesting that some facts about his life are essential to the argument that 'Augustus existed', and some are not. I was asking you to imagine a counterfactual in which those were not true, and asking whether you would still say that the person under discussion could be called 'Augustus'.
 
I hope we're not going to debate whether or not Augustus really existed.

But I guess we could mention that he was officially deified after his death (as it was with some of the Emperors). But I'm reasonably sure that nobody really believed he was divine or could work miracles. Such deifications were done for political purposes (except for Caligula, who deified himself while he was still alive).

Jesus was not deified though, was he? If the reason to crucify him, did not enter the minds of humans until 200 years after the fact, then why was he crucified?

The letter of Pliny the Younger on how to deal with Christians within 100 years after the life of Jesus mentions nothing of deification. If anything, the Christians were accused of not deifying the Emperor and attempting to live pure lives. Neither does it seem that religion was depicted as some motivator of life, but religion was a means of control and economy. The Roman temples had fallen out of use. The reason for this was blamed on Christians, who refused to worship an unknown god or pay for the privilege to do so. The life of a Christian was spared only after they cursed Jesus Christ, and worshipped the image of Trajan and offered sacrifices to the Roman gods.

In today's lingo, Christians could be killed if they did not renounce the Bible and worshipped the image of some world leader, and agreed that materialism is true, instead of trying to live moral lives.
 
Most Roman officials had a pretty poor understanding of what Christianity actually was - in nearly all of the sources, they talk about it as if a living figure called Christ was stirring up agitation among Jews. It's not until very much later that they even realised that Christianity and Judaism were fundamentally different. Part of the reason that the Romans dealt with Christians in such an odd way was that they simply didn't know what they were on about. In particular, a lot of them found the idea of a religion that couldn't worship other people's gods pretty baffling. Trajan simply didn't understand that you might be perfectly patriotic but refuse to pray to the emperor - for him, if you refused, it must have been because you were against the State.
 
Wasn't crucifixion a pretty common punishment back then?

True, but not a mild one. It was reserved for crimes against the Empire.

The actual charge was insurrection. The Jewish leaders claimed he was setting up a personal kingdom among Jews.

J
 
Increasingly I think we're barking up the wrong tree by singling out individual details - there's got to be some level of aggregation involved.
 
Most Roman officials had a pretty poor understanding of what Christianity actually was - in nearly all of the sources, they talk about it as if a living figure called Christ was stirring up agitation among Jews. It's not until very much later that they even realised that Christianity and Judaism were fundamentally different. Part of the reason that the Romans dealt with Christians in such an odd way was that they simply didn't know what they were on about. In particular, a lot of them found the idea of a religion that couldn't worship other people's gods pretty baffling. Trajan simply didn't understand that you might be perfectly patriotic but refuse to pray to the emperor - for him, if you refused, it must have been because you were against the State.

I am not even sure that the disciples and immediate apostles were "aware" of the political much less religious ramifications of what they were experiencing. Now if people want to imagine that the historical Jesus was actually "building" a kingdom here on earth, his followers were not very well prepared for it.

I think perhaps what is happening is this... Historical Jesus is so vague and ambiguous, that he isn't really defined very well at all. But that sort of goes back to your question about what it means to be a historical figure to begin with.

With this I agree, but not sure how one can divorce the religious bias of the last 2000 years from what is historically accurate.
 
One of the criticisms of the Old Testiment is that it reads plausibly as fiction. In this case, that avenue is not available. A scholar should approach the of the accounts of Jesus from the starting point that the person actually lived. It changes the synergy a great deal.

J
 
I think that the likelihood of Jesus and Christianity being a hoax is rather small; small enough to be ignored. What we do have is:

*Multiple oral traditions that are kept alive over 3-5 decades and eventually are compiled into the four gospels and the other later books of the new testament.
*You have a separate written history in the letters of Paul that are closer to the life of Jesus
*You have many events told in these stories some of which are less likely to have happened than others. Such things are common in oral traditions as the truth is embellished with fiction.
*You have documented interactions between Romans and Christians (not involving Jesus)
*You have many non cannon writings about Jesus showing more independent sources of stories
*Many of the tales contradict one another which lends creditably to the independence of sources and authors

What I think is most likely is that Jesus was, at a minimum, a very charismatic teacher with a vibrant message who pissed off the local Jewish leaders who then whined to the Roman authorities to have him killed. No one seemed to think that his message would have staying power beyond his life.

There have been very few people in the past 5000 years who been able to create such an effect over centuries. So what is it about these people or their message that creates such an effect?
 
That wasn't the case that I was making at all, though. I was suggesting that some facts about his life are essential to the argument that 'Augustus existed', and some are not. I was asking you to imagine a counterfactual in which those were not true, and asking whether you would still say that the person under discussion could be called 'Augustus'.
This is ridiculous. You brought up the Augustus angle. I'm not interested in imagining that Augustus could be called Augustus if he hadn't done the actions that prompted people to decide he deserved to be called Augustus (after all, that was never any part of his birth name, which was Octavian).

If he did other things that prompted the awarding of the title of Augustus, that would fall into the category of alt-history which, while interesting and fun to speculate about, isn't the point of this thread.

Jesus was not deified though, was he?
Do people tend to pray to people who haven't been deified? I suppose so, given the number of saints who get prayed to. But then Jesus occupies a higher rung on the ladder and supposedly had/has divine powers, so... :dunno:
 
Do people tend to pray to people who haven't been deified? I suppose so, given the number of saints who get prayed to. But then Jesus occupies a higher rung on the ladder and supposedly had/has divine powers, so... :dunno:

The point being that no one prayed to Jesus, until centuries later. It would seem to me that he could have been the example set to allow other humans to be sainted or deified. It is telling though that during the first few centuries, people either accepted or rejected that Jesus claimed to be God, but it is highly unlikely that humans themselves came up with such stories. It seem that the stories, if made up centuries later, turned Jesus into a charismatic leader. I just don't see it actually working that way during Jesus' actual historical life, if one continues to claim that those stories where just fabricated.

It is a fact to this day, that the RCC does not recognize Jesus as the cornerstone of the church, but Peter. If Jesus was such a great leader, should he have not clarified to the church to get the story straight, instead of the church being mislead for 2000 years? Peter was not even that well known for starting groups of Christians, yet he must have. It was the writings of Paul that did more to solidify the church than anything Peter did, or at least the church did not think much of Peter the first few centuries.

Jesus' mother Mary received a lot more attention and deification that Jesus did, even within the first couple of hundred years. If Jesus was the ultimate example, then it would seem humans never had to deify him. His works and actions already did that. Humans only sainted other humans, if they measured up to the life of Jesus. Jesus himself told people to pray to God in heaven and never claimed to be "lifted up" or deified except on the cross, which was only considered a curse. If you take away the extraordinary stories, Jesus would just be considered a mad man with a sad ending. You would also have to say that Pilate calling Jesus innocent and the accusations of sedition as untrue was also made up. Seems that would call into question the Roman legal system as well. I doubt they wanted a martyr on their hand, and the NT never makes Jesus out to be a martyr. It did call him a savior though.

If anything the movement could be considered a moral change movement. It could even be as complicated as a change in religious governmental control movement. It can hardly be described as an overthrow of a government or even a religion. It was a change from the inside out, like the overturning of slavery, bigotry, or even discrimination. Even though it would become dogmatic and unchanging in the face of a government that would force people to be moral, it hardly started out that way. Governments of that time where not moral bastions. It would seem that if religion was in use at all, it was a way to monopolize the economy, instead of forcing morality on people. Governments were power grabbers and keepers of peace, if such a thing is possible to do with force.
 
There have been very few people in the past 5000 years who been able to create such an effect over centuries. So what is it about these people or their message that creates such an effect?

It's tough to say. Maybe it's just a case of the right type of person at the right place at the right time? How was Mohammed able to convince so many people to follow him in such a short amount of time - leading to over a billion followers today? How was Buddha able to kickstart a religion and get people away from Hinduism? How was Joseph Smith able to convince a bunch of Christians that he's a prophet - and kickstart yet another religion?

I don't think it makes sense to think that all these people were able to get these religions started because their religiously inspired background stories are for the most part true.
 
This is ridiculous. You brought up the Augustus angle. I'm not interested in imagining that Augustus could be called Augustus if he hadn't done the actions that prompted people to decide he deserved to be called Augustus (after all, that was never any part of his birth name, which was Octavian).

If he did other things that prompted the awarding of the title of Augustus, that would fall into the category of alt-history which, while interesting and fun to speculate about, isn't the point of this thread.

OK, I think I'm going at this wrong - here's another angle. I assume it's fair enough to say that you believe in Flying Pig, and that you believe that he's an English bloke, who used to be a soldier, who posts on CFC and has an interest in history. If you got a PM from someone on this site who had dug up the secrets of my past and found that I'd actually been a ballet dancer, you might say something like 'Flying Pig wasn't a soldier; he was a ballet dancer', but you wouldn't doubt my 'existence'. If, on the other hand, you found out that the person writing my posts was actually an author creating a fictional character, you might say 'Flying Pig doesn't exist'. What, though, if the author was actually writing an autobiographical character? You might fairly give either response - either 'Flying Pig doesn't exist, but John Smith the author does, who is like him', or 'Flying Pig exists, but he's actually an author called John Smith'.

So do we say 'Jesus existed, but he was actually not as we're told', or 'Jesus didn't exist - the person who really did is a separate entity'?

Warpus - I think you have to place the (approximately six) people whose ideas managed to create huge world religions that lasted for centuries in the context of the countless people whose ideas didn't. Technically speaking, 'historical' Jesus is totally irrelevant to Christianity's spread, because he did almost nothing to actually spread it - that was almost all the work of the Apostles. It's entirely possible that they just got together and said 'right, we want to start a religion, here's the story we tell everyone'. It just seems unlikely, somehow.
 
Warpus - I think you have to place the (approximately six) people whose ideas managed to create huge world religions that lasted for centuries in the context of the countless people whose ideas didn't.

I did - I said that they were probably the right people at the right place at the right time. That's not easy to do, so it shouldn't be very common.

Technically speaking, 'historical' Jesus is totally irrelevant to Christianity's spread, because he did almost nothing to actually spread it - that was almost all the work of the Apostles. It's entirely possible that they just got together and said 'right, we want to start a religion, here's the story we tell everyone'. It just seems unlikely, somehow.

They probably just decided which stories to embellish instead of deciding to make everything up from scratch. Religions without a fantastical element would not have a good chance of spreading - I don't think. Makes sense for the first people trying to spread their ideas to embellish things here and there - "Walking on water is cool and fits the narrative, let's say he did that", etc.
 
My mistake - I was commenting primarily on 'I don't think it makes sense to think that all these people were able to get these religions started because their religiously inspired background stories are for the most part true.' The numbers would suggest that, if that's a help, it's not much of one - especially given that Hinduism doesn't have a founder and that of Judaism is decidedly sketchy. Judaism as a religion only really dates to the time of the exile in Babylon, but their 'founder' figures are much, much older and far beyond the point where their authenticity would matter, let alone be verifiable.
 
The three major eastern religions got their start in the same place and time as the Jewish captivity. The link is there, whether people accept it or not.
 
The three major eastern religions got their start in the same place and time as the Jewish captivity. The link is there, whether people accept it or not.

Really? On what are you basing that claim?
 
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