Is morality dependent on religion?

[warpus]

Once more, I am sure Scientologists have their own set of morals. However, I assure you that Tom Cruise's set of morals are most likely to be much different than mine.

Right, so if somebody like Tom Cruise can devise a set of moral codes to live his life by from Scientology, what would prevent me from devising a set of moral codes to live my life by from non-religious sources ?

Why not just admit that you can have morality without religion - but that you'd simply end up with a diferent set of morals?

 

[MobBoss]

Right, so if somebody like Tom Cruise can devise a set of moral codes to live his life by from Scientology, what would prevent me from devising a set of moral codes to live my life by from non-religious sources ?

Why not just admit that you can have morality without religion - but that you'd simply end up with a diferent set of morals?

Well, for one, Tom Cruise's moral codes and yours have been exposed to religious themes and codes and thus are duely influenced by same.

Why not just admit that you cant devise a moral code today without religious influence in some way, shape or fashion? It cant be avoided and there is no such thing as a societal "religous vacume" in our world today.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Why not just admit that you cant devise a moral code today without religious influence in some way, shape or fashion? It cant be avoided and there is no such thing as a societal "religous vacume" in our world today.

It is debatable the degree to which anyone is exposed to religion. It may be possible to live in a religious vacuum somewhere.

But even if it isn't, that doesn't mean that morality automatically depends on religion. After all, we are all exposed to language yet that doesn't mean morality is dependent on language. How do you know that a tribe like the Yanomani (sp?) of the Amazon or somesuch, with no contact with the rest of the world, even have a religion that involves morality? I am sure they have religion, and I am sure they have morality, but I am not sure the two are connected. Correlation does not imply causation.

 

[Masquerouge]

Why would all 20 choose to die? The point is that some choose to die so that others may live. Far more moral that the biggest dude of the bunch deciding who he doesnt like....

Suppose you have 20 people that share your views on morality. you only have food for 10 people to survive. What you have yet to explain to me is how you will get 10 people to die. You have explained how people can be motivated to die, but not how you will get 10.
Because what if you have 20 people like you, following your morals, and choosing to die?

 

[Truronian]

Why not just admit that you cant devise a moral code today without religious influence in some way, shape or fashion? It cant be avoided and there is no such thing as a societal "religous vacume" in our world today.

Why then, do most atheists consider it immoral to deny homosexuals the right to marry? It seems this goes against all religious moral codes.

 

[Sidhe]

I tell you what Mob Boss I'll admit the obvious that in modern societies morality exists only in a form influenced by religion if you admit that this is a philosophical question with no absolute answer either way, if you reduce the argument to God you have one question left does he exist? If not then morality exists without religion, if he does then it's anyones guess. Good luck answering that quesiton, as someone said way back

'why do arguments like this always boil down to "does God exist?"' and the answer is 15 pages long by my reckoning and still going.

 

[WillJ]

Well, for one, Tom Cruise's moral codes and yours have been exposed to religious themes and codes and thus are duely influenced by same.

Why not just admit that you cant devise a moral code today without religious influence in some way, shape or fashion? It cant be avoided and there is no such thing as a societal "religous vacume" in our world today.

But this is beside the point.

The question is, "Is morality dependent on religion?" To answer that, we don't need to be in a religion-less vacuum. That's absurd.

What if one were to ask, "Are Pop Tarts dependent on religion?" Any reasonable person would realize the answer is no. Even though no one has done a scientific study controlling the variable of religion and seeing how Pop Tarts arise.

The whole point of the morality-religion question, as I see it, is to ask if we atheists can be moral---if someone can have morals without believing in a god. (This is an important, practical question, the kind of question that gets asked on CFC. Your interpretation of the question makes it one of mere anthropological, academic interest.) I myself, and millions of others, are direct evidence that yes, this is possible; no, morality isn't dependent on religion.

Perhaps we atheists' morals in one way or another were influenced by our relations with religious people, but I, for example, am a moral person and I'm not religious (regardless of how much religion has influenced me). I have morals but no god. I have taken the morals from religion (I doubt I even did that, but I'll concede the point) and left out the god; morals are therefore not dependent on religion.

 

[IglooDame]

Suppose you have 20 people that share your views on morality. you only have food for 10 people to survive. What you have yet to explain to me is how you will get 10 people to die. You have explained how people can be motivated to die, but not how you will get 10.
Because what if you have 20 people like you, following your morals, and choosing to die?

Rock-paper-scissors times ten.

 

[Truronian]

Rock-paper-scissors times ten.

Or Russian Roulette, kills two birds with one stone :suicide:

 

[IglooDame]

Or Russian Roulette, kills two birds with one stone :suicide:

Yeah but suicide is immoral. So, for that matter, is euthanasia/assisted-suicide. So is murder... Uhoh... No wonder MobBoss won't answer that question straight-up...

 

[Masquerouge]

And that difference of belief is exactly why we will have differing views on morality. After all, what is good for a human who is going to live 70 years and then die as a human is different from what is good for a human who will live forever and can become like God.

Could you provide me of one moral point when your view would differ because you believe in the afterlife, and explain to me why the fact that there's an afterlife makes you have a different stance than me?

Because I was under the impression that the religious morality is not that different from an "atheist" morality, apart on certain issues (like homosexuality) that are im my eyes not impacted by having an afterlife or not.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Could you provide me of one moral point when your view would differ because you believe in the afterlife, and explain to me why the fact that there's an afterlife makes you have a different stance than me?

Because I was under the impression that the religious morality is not that different from an "atheist" morality, apart on certain issues (like homosexuality) that are im my eyes not impacted by having an afterlife or not.

Sure they are. I always try to repent - to genuinely seek forgiveness for my sins. If there were no afterlife, I would always try to correct my wrongdoings, but they wouldn't actually hold me back the way they might if I have the chance to live with God. Likewise, I avoid pornography not because I am worried that it will make me a pervert but because I think that if I want to eventually become like God I can't do anything that might trivialize or make me devalue sexuality. Same with going to church - it helps strengthen my relationship with God, but only if He really exists.

 

[Masquerouge]

Sure they are. I always try to repent - to genuinely seek forgiveness for my sins. If there were no afterlife, I would always try to correct my wrongdoings, but they wouldn't actually hold me back the way they might if I have the chance to live with God. Likewise, I avoid pornography not because I am worried that it will make me a pervert but because I think that if I want to eventually become like God I can't do anything that might trivialize or make me devalue sexuality. Same with going to church - it helps strengthen my relationship with God, but only if He really exists.

What you call repent, I call apoligizing. I also try to do that as often as I can because I don't like having people mad at me. I do not know if we have the same definition for pornography, but I also avoid it because I find that usually women are treated like crap, and this is not something I enjoy.
So we do the same things, not for the same reasons... What is more important?

 

[warpus]

Why not just admit that you cant devise a moral code today without religious influence in some way, shape or fashion? It cant be avoided and there is no such thing as a societal "religous vacume" in our world today.

Of course it can be done - I showed you a couple examples earlier but you dismissed them.

Your argument seems to be "Well, every single culture in the history of mankind has been influenced by religion, so you can't have morals without religion".

I'd be a fool not to admit that every single culture has been influenced in some way by religion - anybody can see that that's true. But it does not logically follow that you need religion for morality.

It's like saying: Every single culture in history has been influenced by religion in some way, therefore agriculture is dependent on religion. Do you think that this is true also?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

What you call repent, I call apologizing.

So we do the same things, not for the same reasons... What is more important?

Except that for me, repentance is more than just apologizing. It involves genuine regret for what I did, and asking God's forgiveness. Perhaps the only difference is that I involve God in the process and you don't.

But there are things like not drinking coffee and tea that I don't do because I believe that obedience to God will help me more in the long run than whatever benefits I may get from them. Or going to church, and paying 10% of what I earn, some of which is used for humanitarian purposes but some of which helps teach our doctrine, which is important if it is true and we need to know it even after we die.

 

[MobBoss]

Why then, do most atheists consider it immoral to deny homosexuals the right to marry? It seems this goes against all religious moral codes.

Because under their moral code, sexual immorality is just as moral as a husband/wife sexual relationship.

Yeah but suicide is immoral. So, for that matter, is euthanasia/assisted-suicide. So is murder... Uhoh... No wonder MobBoss won't answer that question straight-up...

What question is it that am I supposed to be answering straight up?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

It's like saying: Every single culture in history has been influenced by religion in some way, therefore agriculture is dependent on religion. Do you think that this is true also?

That's a good analogy. After all, many agricultural societies had religions that focused just as much on agriculture as on morality, if not more. Like rituals to ask the gods for rain, or sacrifices (human or otherwise) to ensure fertility, or what have you.

 

[IglooDame]

What question is it that am I supposed to be answering straight up?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4161739&postcount=284

 

[warpus]

Because under their moral code, sexual immorality is just as moral as a husband/wife sexual relationship.

Can you direct me to the religion which influenced this particular moral code? (ie. a moral code which doesn't view homosexual acts as immoral acts)

 

[MobBoss]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=4161739&postcount=284

I did answer that very directly. You must have missed it.