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Is the game fun again?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by WCH, May 17, 2010.

  1. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    Am I the only one that actually likes the huge AI stacks of N x 100 units?
    And am I the only one who does not even imagine using the quick combat option?

    Defeating a larger force with just a bunch of fireball adepts and horse archers makes me feel like every battle is epic. Its like that final battle at the end of Star Wars or the Lord of the Rings. Just 10 times better, and each turn!
     
  2. Jarrema

    Jarrema Master Voter

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    PPQ
    IMHO it is quite possible, that yeah, YOU ARE the only one :)

    Certainl, I hate those stacks, and this is main (maybe even only) reason I do not like games that last till tier four units
     
  3. Breunor

    Breunor Deity

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    No, you aren't the only one.

    I kind of agree with Kael - before the AI change, the key was getting heroes and super promoted units, and to run around and stomp with them. Now, they are of secondary importance.

    I suspect that I like the game more now because it is different - I'm forced to try new things. Now, the game is more about building up a Civ. Of course, you HAVE to use quick combat or else it takes forever.


    I do admit there are some negative consequences, however. The first issue, as others have noted, is game speed. I have a pretty good computer some some people may suffer more than I do - certainly, if you like large or huge maps, it can be a problem probably on even the best rigs.

    The second issue is a tad more subtle. I'm not sure about spell/school balance any more. With large stacks and an AI that uses magic actually rather well, the area of effect spells have gained in importance so I'm not sure if summoning and other spells need to be buffed.

    However, for me, the game is clearly more challenging. I used to get to a point where I could easily declare myself the winner or loser rather early. Now, if I take a lead (I'm a builder) I have the middle state where I have to fight off the enemies ot consolidate my gains. Hawks look for the enemy stacks. I usually have 2 or 3 really tense moments and I'm at the edge of my seat.

    My last game, I thought I had won and was on cruise control, and I 'let -up'. Basium hit me with his SoD (you guys don't find him aggressive??) and I lost. I learned a good lesson there!


    Now, I REALLY have to think through every 'build vs. army' decision for a long time; of course, if I don't expand, with the computer advantages I'm long-term doomed. But if I expand and build, I can win in the long-run, but can I hold off the SoD going for me now? I find the game very tense. So for me, the game is indeed more fun.


    Best wishes,

    Breunor
     
  4. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    We should really join together than. Know any other people who agree with me on SODs?

    Maybe we should found a SOD fan club.
     
  5. DaveGold

    DaveGold Emperor

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    I don't find him aggressive if I've built the Mercurian gate. Even if an opponent has built the Mercurian gate I can usually conquer Basium's cities without engaging his 100+ stack of angels. His cities only have a handful of units in them.

    I'm not a great fan of big stacks. Big enemy unit listings can be hard to read due to my display settings and I can't change those. Uniquely promoted FFH units are nice to work with until you have a big stack of your own to micromanage. Building a stack of 30 vampires means building each unit, feeding each unit, moving them between cities, and promoting each unit. It all takes time.
     
  6. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    No, I mean AI SODs and taking them out with a minimalist force of updated units. (think 4 divisions of fireball mages and 2 cleanup brigades).
     
  7. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    I really hate SoDs. However, I'd rather play an effective AI that uses SoDs than a totally ineffective AI that doesn't...so I'm basically in favor of the new AI improvements. The fact that SoDs are essential for effective play is sort of built in to the civ4 game design. I'd sure like to see someone try to mod this out, but it might be impossible. I'm looking forward to both civ5 and the standalone FFH, both of which I expect to do away with this particular tedium.
     
  8. Breunor

    Breunor Deity

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    Well written. I agree, it isn't that I like SoD's, it is that I like the challenge and right now, forming SoD's is the best way to win.

    Best wishes,

    Breunor
     
  9. Jarrema

    Jarrema Master Voter

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    I agree with You in 100%
     
  10. Fafnir13

    Fafnir13 King

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    The only problem I have with SoD is that I don't see the AI breaking them up logically. If he has 100 axeman and the opponent only has 35, you don't need them all in one place. Some can run off and conquer city X while the others can run off to conquer city Y. The war will be over faster, expending less monies on all the troops outside of their borders. It would also make the AI much less vulnerable to distraction tactics such as having a small group of units running around in their territory threatening cities.

    On AoE spells, they've always been quite powerful. With the AI using big stacks, I view them less as overpowered as a hard core necessity to survive.
     
  11. DaveGold

    DaveGold Emperor

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    It all depends what logic you use. It's very hard for a computer AI to decide when 'that amount of units is enough to ... to um do ... do whatever it need it to do for the next twelve turns!'. Enemy forces can literally be conjured from nowhere. Each unit in a stack adds some defence to every other unit, even if it's just someone to hide behind when injured, so big stacks are very logical for preserving those units.

    If anyone wants a new game mechanic to add risk to big stacks then I'd suggest disease. Give a diseased/plagued/etc unit a small chance of passing on that disease each turn to each unit in the stack (of the same nation). Once you get 4 diseased units in a stack of 100 that chance will multiply up and need curing. Priest cures could be limited to 5 units in a stack, maybe, to give the diseases more impact.
     
  12. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    You do know that the AI will newer be able to understand that.

    Also, there is just something epic about skilfully using a small bunch of units to defeat a massive enemy SOD. Kind of like all the good fantasy stories.
     
  13. Andostre

    Andostre Chieftain

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    Standalone FFH? I must be out of the loop. What are the details on this?
     
  14. Nikis-Knight

    Nikis-Knight Deity

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    There's a new sticky thread about it. Short story is: No details yet. :lol:
     
  15. Andostre

    Andostre Chieftain

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    Oh, hooray! I saw that sticky and just assumed it was Kael repeating that there is no FFH news regarding Civ 5. :)
     
  16. DirtyFinger

    DirtyFinger Prince

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    That's because the continued development of FFH relied on keeping Kael&Co happy. ;)
    If this mod was on retail with securom and other ungodly DRM rootkits holding our PCs hostage then we'd all go screaming ****cock and the like.

    no illusions. :p

    Somehow money brings out the worst in people.
     
  17. Anathema

    Anathema Chieftain

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    I agree, and that's the one thing that keeps me playing FfH on higher difficulties, even these ridiculous SoDs can still sometimes be beaten by micromanaging a few elite units. The problem is, somewhere in annihilating the 50-man SoD, our mighty hero loses a 99.5% battle and the forces of evilness overrun his kingdom. Honestly Civ4 combat has a lot of problems, SoDs are one, 1v1 RNG battles are another. FfH has done a great job trying to overcome these problems (spells help a lot), but then again FfH's focus on combat and heroes further hightlights the problems of RNG combat when your hero loses that battle against a common orc warrior that was almost-a-sure-thing.

    I've just given up on the Civ4 combat model, waiting with great expectations for Civ5 and standalone FfH like everyone else.
     
  18. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    But is that not the main source of fun?
    The uncertainty of having a small band of heroes controlling the fate of your empire.

    You know that they may not win. And you know that nothing less than the fate of your nation is in the balance. That is why I watch every fight. The tension is unbearable.
     
  19. esvath

    esvath Apprentice of Erebus

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    I agree with both statements here.

    While AI is not quite effective in handling its SoD, it is a great step forward in making AI more challenging.

    And there is a terrible adrenaline rush when my Hero+elite Immortals+Archmagi able to destroy tons of demons just by a scracth. I even don't regret any losses there. We just solemnly mourn for the brave Paladins died fighting the infernal beasts.
     
  20. Sonereal

    Sonereal ♫We got the guillotine♫ Supporter

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    Well, there is one mod that has xUPT already as an option (x meaning you set the unit limit) and it only counts combat units, not workers and settlers of course and ships can stack in cities still.

    The AI doesn't look as if it has a problem handling it in game but it will send several stacks at you instead (several, being in some late game cases, being several dozen along a long frontline). Units still stack in cities however after built but can't be moved back in if it surpasses the limit.

    Anyway, while I agree there's something fun about a small force of elite heroes defeating a large stack, there's probably something epic in the idea of an elite unit punching through a strong point of the enemy line by itself and, while not winning the war right there, helped immensely as my units start filling in the gap and surrounding the enemy army but the mod I play also uses Surround and Destroy which makes surrounding a unit or city give a bonus.

    Then again, others prefer the SoD and I won't fault them since it does lead to that one, large scale battle that decided the future of your people in that one instance. However, setting the XUPT to 3 (like I do) or 20-50 (or lower or higher if you prefer) doesn't bug at the AI in the mod. It just makes wars longer as units fight in the field and the tactical advantages of terrain have to be overtaken from multiple angles.

    It depends on FFH's AI. The maker of the xUPT system in the other mod made it optional and and didn't change the AI much to handle it and the AI has no problem beating you up at several points instead of one.

    This thread reminds me, I have a FFH save that i haven't played in a few days.:lol:
     

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