Is this the end of liberalism?

[Leoreth]

How so? Because he doesn't want to pay for some SJW hipster's basket weaving degree?

I will file this post for reference when you accuse others of being out of touch with reality.

Here in Germany students are told not to care about the market, but to study what they want to. That may sound good in some fantasyland. But indoctrinating young students with the false view that the demand for jobs doesn't matter is simply irresponsible. In the University of Hamburg we have thriving departments for pearls of essential knowledge such as art history, Vietnamese, or folk lore (no kidding). The consequences are massive dropout rates, students studying forever because they are afraid to finish, and high levels of unemployment among post-graduates, who in the best case eventually find some second-class job which has nothing at all to do with their education.

Interestingly enough, here the ambitious and determined students who study business or law are the ones who are mocked by students of the humanities, who, it should be noted, spend much of their college time whining about the horrors of capitalism, Western imperialism and tuition fees instead of actually learning. Though glancing at the recent events at Yale and Missouri universities I guess I shouldn't complain...

I find it hard to believe you've actually been in contact with university students "here in Germany" for the last couple of years.

In my experience people choose their academic field because of carreer prospects, because they are scared shitless about their future (this is especially true for many people in business in my experience, so no clue why you're holding them up). People drop out because they realise they are stuck in a field they hate because they chose it five years ago based on open job statistics. People drop out because their curriculum has been streamlined to churn out graduates for the corporate world to a point where personal choice becomes meaningless (which is terrible in an environment that should stimulate innovation and free thinking in a professional context). Professors and staff complain that students only show up to collect their credit, instead of actually engaging with the content that is supposed to interest them. Which all of course is just because the whole process is so geared towards producing industry-norm graduates as soon as possible that there is no room for anything else. Same with students willing to sue over every single thing if it gets them to pass an exam, they are willing to do everything to get their degree because to them it isn't worth anything besides their ticket past corporate gate keeping.

And I do know people who are still indefinitely students, and they have a degree in reach for a field that basically guarantees you a job. So I don't think your theory holds there. Could it be that in this process the time between all the mandatory courses and finishing your thesis is the only time where you have any freedom at all?

These are all experiences from my personal surroundings by the way (yes, "here in Germany"). And most of them are people I know from my own time at Uni, so they're in STEM fields (mathematics and computer science mostly). Those are generally praised as being the commendable diligent students by people like you, aren't they? So again, the narrative you're conjuring about the phenomena I just described being a consequence of lazy useless humanities students doesn't really hold up.

Speaking of humanities students, aren't you a history teacher?

 

[civman110]

I will file this post for reference when you accuse others of being out of touch with reality.

Sure, and we can compare who became more successful - the SJW basket weaver demanding free university, or the newly graduated chemical engineer that paid for his own education.

 

[Leoreth]

Since caricatures only exist in your head, the answer is obvious.

 

[civman110]

the answer is obvious.

The chemical engineer?

 

[Leoreth]

The chemical engineer that got free tuition, yes.

 

[civman110]

The chemical engineer that got free tuition, yes.

He paid for it. He was too busy studying while the SJWs were protesting after "gender studies."

 

[sophie]

Sure, and we can compare who became more successful - the SJW basket weaver demanding free university, or the newly graduated chemical engineer that paid for his own education.

Depends on what you mean by successful. If the chemical engineer chose chemical engineering solely because it pays the highest salary, and so has condemned himself to 30 years of miserable soul-sucking work (even though his financial security may have been secured) can we really call that "success"?

What's the point of that? Why spend the entirety of your one certain existence doing something that makes you miserable?

 

[Leoreth]

He paid for it. He was too busy studying while the SJWs were protesting after "gender studies."

If he was so busy studying, where did the money for tuition come from?

Depends on what you mean by successful. If the chemical engineer chose chemical engineering solely because it pays the highest salary, and so has condemned himself to 30 years of miserable soul-sucking work (even though his financial security may have been secured) can we really call that "success"?

What's the point of that?

I think the success is that after 30 years they can finally pay pack their tuition debt.

 

[civman110]

If he was so busy studying, where did the money for tuition come from?

Well, responsible people get these things called "summer jobs" and "student loans" that they pay off later with useful degrees like basket weaving... just kidding Chemical Engineering.

 

[jackelgull]

If he was so busy studying, where did the money for tuition come from?

Rich parents, probably

 

[Leoreth]

Well, responsible people get these things called "summer jobs" and "student loans" that they pay off later with useful degrees like basket weaving... just kidding Chemical Engineering.

No time for summer jobs, summer is for unpaid internships. Only irresponsible basket weavers waste away their summer when there is opportunity to "build your social network" and "get exposure".

Rich parents, probably

Yes.

 

[jackelgull]

No time for summer jobs, summer is for unpaid internships

I heard that alot of internships in STEM fields are paid , but then again, that's just a rumor I heard, and may not be actual fact.

 

[Zkribbler]

Well, responsible people get these things called "summer jobs" and "student loans" that they pay off later with useful degrees like basket weaving... just kidding Chemical Engineering.

Now I feel cheated. Not only did my university not offer a degree in basket weaving, it didn't even offer a single basket weaving course.

 

[Akka]

Well, responsible people get these things called "summer jobs" and "student loans" that they pay off later with useful degrees like basket weaving... just kidding Chemical Engineering.

You really built this nice world in your head so you don't have to ever confront the falsety of your desired premises, right ?

 

[Leoreth]

I heard that alot of internships in STEM fields are paid , but then again, that's just a rumor I heard, and may not be actual fact.

It's true of course. I'm just trying to break the false dichotomy that you are either a valuable chemical engineer or a worthless certified basket weaver. That is not how people or the economy work. We cannot live in a world where everyone is a chemical engineer. And many "legitimate" fields, i.e. where people qualify for jobs that are actually needed, have terrible internship conditions.

I just didn't feel like writing this down when talking to civman because that would give his silly scenario more credit than it deserves.

 

[Funky]

Having taken art history and classes which contained folk lore, I can safely say that I benefited from them.

Sure you have. As do many others. I am not calling the subjects themselves into question, I am criticizing that they are visited by way more students than there is a demand for, and that instead of warning the students about their later job situation, they are actually being encouraged to study such subjects.

Speaking of humanities students, aren't you a history teacher?

In retrospect, history was perhaps the worst faculty of all in this regard. We had a whole bunch of leftist parties at the university. They were largely led by students who were officially registered for history or other humanities but were not really studying at all. Instead they left all their crap about capitalism and Neonazis (who was everyone to the right of them) on flyers all around the mensa and elsewhere, shouted down any sensible voices at political meetings, and even blocked off the university buildings occasionally, chanting "education for everyone" while not letting anyone in.

 

[Leoreth]

You're right, maybe they should have focused on their careers. Or you should have just gone into business as you're so eager to demand of other people. Sounds like the best outcome for everyone, including your students.

 

[jackelgull]

Nevermind. Thought better of what I was going to say.

 

[Funky]

You're right, maybe they should have focused on their careers. Or you should have just gone into business as you're so eager to demand of other people. Sounds like the best outcome for everyone, including your students.

Sigh. How about showing some decency instead of distorting what I wrote. Since you're a mod and we can't put you on the ignore list, you really have a higher responsibility for what you post.

 

[jackelgull]

Sigh. How about showing some decency instead of distorting what I wrote. Since you're a mod and we can't put you on the ignore list, you really have a higher responsibility for what you post.

So you're demanding that CFC become a safe space for you?