is Tithe a no-brainer?

[Rombizio]

Question: Is Tithe a no-brainer?
Answer: Yes

Even on small maps. Now imagined Tithe with a huge map where you have at least 10 POP in 20 cities. Do the math. It gets even better once you get the World Congress to pass your religion as the World one.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I still maintain it doesn't need a nerf. The 1st to get to a religion should get to pick a better belief than the one who gets there as 2nd.

The AI just needs to be made more aware of its power so it will prefer it unless there are some situational circumstances that make some other belief better.

Any time one "option" is better than all of the others is bad, in my opinion. "Better" should mean different things to you depending on your goals.

I think the main problem is that Tithe is for all followers, while most of the others work with followers in other cities and/or include qualifiers.

 

[NukeAJS]

9 times out of ten, it's a no-brainer.

All the other things people said - they're the 1 out of ten.

 

[kaspergm]

I still maintain it doesn't need a nerf. The 1st to get to a religion should get to pick a better belief than the one who gets there as 2nd.

The AI just needs to be made more aware of its power so it will prefer it unless there are some situational circumstances that make some other belief better.

Any time one "option" is better than all of the others is bad, in my opinion. "Better" should mean different things to you depending on your goals.

I think the main problem is that Tithe is for all followers, while most of the others work with followers in other cities and/or include qualifiers.

Agreed, there's a fine line between "best" and "always better", and Tithe might just sit on the wrong side, which is bad for game because it means repetition (unless AI was coded to always pick it if it founded first, which it doesn't, in which case it would sharpen competition).

I agree with others, it does seem odd that Tithe need fewer followers than the comparable Culture and Happiness beliefs *and* it also counts internal cities. I do realize that there is not a 1:1:1 correspondence between Gold, Culture and Happiness points, but the fact that with Tithe you don't have to marginally worry about foreign cities being re-converted whereas with the culture and happiness belief it renders your own belief completely useless is a major issue.

 

[headcase]

I go Peace Gardens if my cities are (will be) on fresh water. Otherwise, pretty much always Tithe.

 

[rodrigoq]

I'm assuming 80,000 faith is a typo? Otherwise that is some extreme cooked settings and/or played long (long long long) after the average game is finished.

Not cooked, Marathon game. Spread my religion fast, and had 500ish Fpt, on a large map. Had the world smothered with my faith by 800AD, and it just kept accumulating after my good great people were expensive, and I had neglected to use my faith for anything useful. Think I was in the 1800's when I had that faith pile. Dropped it on a pile of merchants to fund a war I wasn't expecting to happen so soon.

 

[CaptainPatch]

Depends on the map and starting location, i don't always have good and enough CS candidates for friendship in my vecinity or even on my continent. Take siam for example, spawning next to a few maritime/culture CS is much better than spawning next to a few mercantile and militaristic (does SIAM even get anything extra from these?)

Always Huge, always Pangaea, always Marathon, always 41 City States. The Pangaea is because it seems that if you have world-spanning oceans, you end up having less develop-able land tiles. And Pangaea still has an abundance of inland seas so you can use maritime features, as well as a fair-sized ocean that abuts the West and East edges of the map.

The long term strategy doesn't really require useful CSs to spawn nearby, or even any CSs nearby. All you have to do is thoroughly scout out the entire map (which on Huge only takes about the first 3,000 years ) -- which is something you should do anyway, regardless. Along the way, work on beFriending/Allying the Culture CSs = faster border growth and faster Social Policy acquisition. It's beneficial to buddy up to the other CS types too, but the most useful will be the Cultural CSs.

It's also important to understand one thing: It doesn't matter how far away a CS is. All that matters is that the CSs become aware that you exist. Once they know you exist, they start issuing tasks that when you complete them gives you BIG chunks of Influence (25-50 points). The ONLY task they issue that requires that you have units nearby are the "A nearby barbarian camp is making us nervous" task. If you maintain a half-dozen or so units on patrol around the map, even those generally become doable. All of the other tasks can be successfully completed even if you and the CS in question are on opposite coasts. If you flesh out the Patronage tree, once a CS is your Friend, they will remain your Friend (or Ally) for a long, long time. Add just a little Piety, and having the same Religion will give you more and longer-lasting Influence.

About the only situations where beFriending CSs isn't overwhelmingly advantageous is in warmongering environments where civs start conquering CSs left and right. Because of the World Congress though, it's more advantageous to have a CS Ally than it is to have that CS as a member of your empire via conquest.

 

[danieladler]

Its interesting that the AI in my games never choose Tithe. Its always there to choose even though you are the last to found a religion.

 

[GoStu]

I think the real difference is that Tithe benefits from your own citizens where World Church (culture) and Pilgrimage (faith). It's tough to wager tour founder's bonus that you can keep any foreign empires following your religion. No guarantee that that AI won't do something like build the hagia Sophia and found the next religion "because I can".

 

[rodrigoq]

I think the real difference is that Tithe benefits from your own citizens where World Church (culture) and Pilgrimage (faith). It's tough to wager tour founder's bonus that you can keep any foreign empires following your religion. No guarantee that that AI won't do something like build the hagia Sophia and found the next religion "because I can".

If you're going to play the religion game, you need to go all out. Means.. beelining theology, and taking all 3 wonders before anyone else. Maxing FTP, and reducing missionary costs to absolute minimum. Then spamming the world with your faith. Hitting up every city and CS possible, just so your faith's pressureis 4x+ what the AI's is, or even equal pressure to their holy city. Then keeping missionaries in unsettled areas to pop new AI cities as they are created. More cities= more pressure. I've had a few games where the pressure from all surrounding cities of the same civ was greater than their holy city, and the holy city started to gain followers of my filth.

You really have to make it as important as tech/culture/growth, if not greater.

 

[GoStu]

If you're going to play the religion game, you need to go all out. Means.. beelining theology, and taking all 3 wonders before anyone else. Maxing FTP, and reducing missionary costs to absolute minimum. Then spamming the world with your faith. Hitting up every city and CS possible, just so your faith's pressureis 4x+ what the AI's is, or even equal pressure to their holy city. Then keeping missionaries in unsettled areas to pop new AI cities as they are created. More cities= more pressure. I've had a few games where the pressure from all surrounding cities of the same civ was greater than their holy city, and the holy city started to gain followers of my filth.

You really have to make it as important as tech/culture/growth, if not greater.

I don't disagree that you have to go balls to the wall to make the religion thing work out. That said, taking all three wonders is capital-H HARD if not impossible against competition. It'd really depend on who else is on the map. Also, bear in mind the diplomatic penalties if converting people against their will.

Prioritizing religion that hard against everything else is a hell of an opportunity cost too. Can't say it'd be worth it.

 

[sendos]

If you're going to play the religion game, you need to go all out. Means.. beelining theology, and taking all 3 wonders before anyone else. Maxing FTP, and reducing missionary costs to absolute minimum. Then spamming the world with your faith. Hitting up every city and CS possible, just so your faith's pressureis 4x+ what the AI's is, or even equal pressure to their holy city. Then keeping missionaries in unsettled areas to pop new AI cities as they are created. More cities= more pressure. I've had a few games where the pressure from all surrounding cities of the same civ was greater than their holy city, and the holy city started to gain followers of my filth.

You really have to make it as important as tech/culture/growth, if not greater.

Even I did want my religion to spread quickly, I would not rely on this method, put simply, because religious AI's rely on this method all the time. When they get their 3rd prophet, they'll target the biggest cities, which expectively neutralizes your efforts to spread your religion, unless you have unity of the prophets.

I prefer relying on passive means to spread religion, with semi-active support, such as trade routes.

 

[Scott Jegg]

Yup. I do just fine spreading my religion once I have religious texts, and I never build any of the faith wonders.

 

[sendos]

Yup. I do just fine spreading my religion once I have religious texts, and I never build any of the faith wonders.

Itinerant preachers does an even better job if you have quite a lot of cities and they are rather close to each other. I managed to get pressure up to 80 points thanks to itinerant preachers.

 

[Scott Jegg]

I'd generally always picked Texts because I thought that would be better with closer cities. I generally go wide, and once I have about 8 of my own with religion, it's as good as secured. A few missionaries get the ball rolling in city states, then it's like wildfire on its own.

 

[Cpt Oblivious]

I rather take Dialog if there is some persistent missionary spammer.

I have to agree with the strength of IFD;
If you are going wide next to a religion spammer, you can literally farm converting your own cities back and forth from it; if you have neighbors who aren't focusing religion themselves between you and an aggressive religious civ, you can safely "fight" over who is the dominant religion in the neutral civ's cities; neither of those incurring diplo penalties while giving you a constant science boost (and actually makes GMoD worth considering)

 

[EriktheRead]

I'm somewhat supprised that no one has advocated for world church. Did it get a nerf? I don't recall. With the gimped culture buildings one would think that it would be a good choice. I've been thinking about rolling up a huge map with Arabia and rolling in social policies...

 

[Krajzen]

I am the only one who completely doesn't understand brutal Ceremonial Burial nerf while not touching Tithe?

To be honest, during all of my games post BNW I have NEVER EVER took anything other than Tithe. Yeah, it is no - brainer for me. Iny my opinion other founder beliefs should be seriously buffed, and Ceremonial Burial turned to 1 happiness per city.

By the way, is Messenger of Gods good? I always thought it could be good but never had balls to use it instead of Tithe

 

[EriktheRead]

Mog is a pantheon, you can have both.

 

[Browd]

Messenger of the Gods is a pantheon belief (beakers per city connection), not a founder belief. Do you mean Interfaith Dialogue (missionary and GP spread missions generate beakers)?