Is Whip/Chop overflow an Exploit? I say No

[CornPlanter]

Using your brains is an exploit. AI hasn't got them, you know.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Anyone else wondering what Crusher's response will be?

Probably surprise. This really HAS gone unpatched a long, long time.

But now the OP question is moot. If people are still doing this in 3.19, there's no question as to whether or not it provides an unfair advantage.

 

[nanomage]

but it still works in 3.19? you still can whip for overflow, it's just no longer afffected be building multipliers if i understand correctly. Well, then it's now a question of just "building wealth before currency", and it can still save your rear side for some turns if you've made a mistake and are stuck with 86turns to research writing at 0 and no money.

 

[PieceOfMind]

BtS 3.19 --> killer of debates, and some mods (more than likely).

Official Patch 3.19

Oh... look what's included in there:

"Build-specific production modifiers are no longer counted for overflow gold calculations"

Hmm... looks like it WAS a bug being exploited afterall; even the developers thought so.

Honestly, did anybody think otherwise?

lol

Anyone else wondering what Crusher's response will be?

Yes

but it still works in 3.19? you still can whip for overflow, it's just no longer afffected be building multipliers if i understand correctly. Well, then it's now a question of just "building wealth before currency", and it can still save your rear side for some turns if you've made a mistake and are stuck with 86turns to research writing at 0 and no money.

Indeed. In BtS 3.19, assuming it works correctly (which is sort of unproven at this point), it's hardly going to be called an exploit anymore.

 

[mboettcher]

WOw that finally killed this thread.

Now I'm going to start a new thread complaining about the patch (not the overflow fix)

 

[nanomage]

not yet, it's still alive, as we are posting here )

 

[mi6agent]

haha where is crusher now i'm missing him

 

[DaveMcW]

I can confirm that overflow is capped at 1x the cost of whatever you are building.

Any extra hammers are thrown away and NOT converted to gold.

 

[r_rolo1]

What i feared ....

Good ol'comeback to the MM times, I guess

 

[Iranon]

Well, you can still chop/whip into wonders with production bonuses for compensation money... that still seems to work as before. Principle still works, only it's more fiddly and you only have a limited time window.

I wonder if IND sees a sudden upwsing in popularity as all who likes chopping discounted buildings turn to it?

 

[Shurdus]

Why would this turn things back to the MM times? The overflow trick was really over the top in some very cooked up and specific circumstances. In the very typical scenario's you would not get such insane overflows. If you play the game normally there is no need to really worry about wasting all those hammers, you just have to be careful not to whip and chop two forrests to complete a building any more.

Ow and as to guessing if the designers intended the mechanic to be like it was in 3.17... Guess not.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Well, the overflow trick was pretty MM-ish, too.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Why would this turn things back to the MM times? The overflow trick was really over the top in some very cooked up and specific circumstances. In the very typical scenario's you would not get such insane overflows. If you play the game normally there is no need to really worry about wasting all those hammers, you just have to be careful not to whip and chop two forrests to complete a building any more.

Ow and as to guessing if the designers intended the mechanic to be like it was in 3.17... Guess not.

Actually, that's not true. You'll have to MM away from producing a warrior before a settler if chopping and such, and whipping one automatically loses hammers now.

One thing that makes me wonder about the whole process is why this thread even started...or specifically, why if it WASN'T intended it existed in 3.17, or even 3.13. It's been a known tactic for well before each of those patches... so if fireaxis knew of it, why the massive delay on the change? And, why change it back to the old way rather than mimic what the unofficial patches did with reducing the hammer ---> gold to just 1:1 (which would have removed any exploitative issue as then the forest yield would be minimal).

I logically thought they intended for it since they didn't change it for so long, but since that clearly isn't the case now, why didn't the copy the (better) implementation done in the unofficial patch? Pride? Why introduce MM back into the game?

Overall though most of the 3.19 updates are extremely good to see and I have no qualms about updating...just a bit annoying to have to swap warriors into/out of queue to avoid losing hammers.

Well, the overflow trick was pretty MM-ish, too.

Yes, but in this case we're being forced to MM just to AVOID losing hammers, rather than gain something

 

[Lone Wolf]

And, why change it back to the old way rather than mimic what the unofficial patches did with reducing the hammer ---> gold to just 1:1 (which would have removed any exploitative issue as then the forest yield would be minimal).

Judging by the patch notes, it's what they intended to do. Why they just didn't copy the unofficial patch code - I don't know also. Maybe it's just the result of the inefficiency and bloat of big corporations...

 

[PieceOfMind]

Judging by the patch notes, it's what they intended to do. Why they just didn't copy the unofficial patch code - I don't know also. Maybe it's just the result of the inefficiency and bloat of big corporations...

Build-specific production modifiers are no longer counted for overflow gold calculations

At the moment, it appears there is no longer any such thing as overflow gold. This means the patch note is misleading and probably the game is not working as intended, if the description is meant to describe what is intended.

 

[Lone Wolf]

At the moment, it appears there is no longer any such thing as overflow gold. This means the patch note is misleading and probably the game is not working as intended, if the description is meant to describe what is intended.

By "the thing they intended to do" I meant "doing what the unofficial patch did".

 

[PieceOfMind]

By "the thing they intended to do" I meant "doing what the unofficial patch did".

But the unofficial patch still allows for some overflow gold, it just doesn't get the multipliers like for stone+PRO leaders. Or was I using a different UP?

 

[Lone Wolf]

But the unofficial patch still allows for some overflow gold, it just doesn't get the multipliers like for stone+PRO leaders.

Exactly. That's what I am saying - that Firaxis didn't do what they intended to due to their buggy code in that regard.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Oh, so you're agreeing they didn't do what they intended to do, and that the patch notes are incorrect.

For those of us who don't abuse the overflow gold system (i.e. timing chops and whips on buildings with +100% or higher modifiers), the change comes as a disappointment because, as TMIT explains, it introduces more MM for those of us who want to avoid wasting hammers. Wasting hammers is a bigger concern than trying to convert hammers into gold, so it's a step backwards as far as I can tell.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

At the moment, it appears there is no longer any such thing as overflow gold. This means the patch note is misleading and probably the game is not working as intended, if the description is meant to describe what is intended.

The changes to CvCity.cpp make it clear that the patch note correctly describes the intended change (which does not match the actual change).