Isaac and the Wonders? What to do with our Sci Leader

[mad-bax]

Sun Tzus would be my choice.

 

[Ginger_Ale]

Sun Tzu's will allow us to upgrade old units at any time, even if they're in conquered cities. It'll end up saving us lots of gpt, and we can conquer the continent faster, leading to a better 130k date. Veteran units are WAY better than regulars.

 

[Provolution]

We should have Leonardo da Vinci's Workshop as I am true Illuminati-supporter and for the long term advantage. We can always set up specialized military barracks cities.
We really do not need the Sistine Chapel for the same reason (We get luxuries for the job). But having forceful upgrade policies for half price is sexy.

 

[vikingruler]

i think we should decide between leo's or sun tzu's. sistine chapel won't be that useful on account that a few temples can match the culture and the happiness bonus won't help us a lot. i prefer sun tzu's. being on a pangea, it will give every city we build or capture barracks letting us heal units on the front lines. also, the barracks would mean we will always get vet units which are vital in a war.

 

[Bertie]

I support going after Sun Tzu for the reasons Chieftess, Moth, & Ginger Ale set forth.

To DaveShack’s question of whether we should switch our research:

A qualified no. I’d continue with Engineering over Feudalism because it’s more valuable in that fewer of the AI civs will research it and because we won’t really need to have a barracks in every city until shortly before we attack the Portuguese. By that time we should be able to trade for Feudalism – or exhort it from the Netherlands as a peace agreement – and have lost nothing. Our initial war strategy towards the Netherlands was to wage a fairly short war. If we think we can get Feudalism as part of a peace agreement, we may want to fight a fairly lengthy war against them (lengthy in terms of time; once we reduce them to one or two cities we may want to wage more of a phony war). However, I suspect the Netherlands will get Feudalism fairly soon. We know they’ll beeline for this because it will give them their UU. And if one of the scientific civs get Feudalism as their free tech, I suspect the Netherlands will move heaven & earth to make a trade in order to acquire it.

A further advantage of continuing with Engineering is that should be decide we want Leo’s, we can start a prebuild for it and be reasonably assured of getting it. We’ll be able to get Sun Tzu & Leo’s too. BTW, because of Isaac, I think it's quite possible we'll be able to get Sun Tzu, Leo's, & the Sistine Chapel. I'd make acquiring all three our strategy.

The only reason to Switch research to Feudalism, IMO, is if we think one of our scientific competitors – the Byzantines or Persians – might pop Feudalism and also might be able to build Sun Tzu’s before we’re able to use Isaac Newton. I don’t think this is all that likely, but it’s a possibility.

 

[Furiey]

Forgot to mention that I'm also a Sun Tzu supporter for the many reasons already mentioned. Being able to heal troops in 1 turn in nearly every city is so useful when on the warpath.

One other thing we need to consider is where to build it. It doesn't have to be Camelot. Perhaps some culture elsewhere could be useful.

 

[TimBentley]

I'll go for Sun Tzu's. Fast healing is the benefit I like in particular. The main savings for Leo's would be upgrading horsemen to knights, and we don't currently have any horses IIRC (edit: I guess we have 3). Also worth noting is that Sun Tzu's would be available first, so we would have the chance to get a MGL earlier.

 

[RegentMan]

Argh... now I'm torn between Leo's and Sun Tzu's! Darn you all!

I think I might be leaning towards Leo's though. The gold we save on upgrades can be used to rush all of the barracks that we need.

 

[Furiey]

It's not just that the Barracks magically appear, but they also cost nothing to support. This saves us 1gpt for every Barracks we would build.

 

[GenMarshall]

@ CivGeneral. Which TC are you talking about, because the most recent one I know of, we have not finished researching currency yet?

As Furiey said, it was the recent one that only had 1 turn played, and it was after the discovery of currency and moving into the middle ages.

As Commander of the Armed forces, I advocate building the Sun Tzu to reap the benifits of the wonder. We can build cheaper barracks with no cost at all and with no maitanance cost neather. This would provide a bost our military production by producing vet units, even in the recently settled city. Another bonus is that we can aslo upgrade in any city too.

We should use Issac to build Sun Tzu. The next wonder we should build is once we discover invention, which would enable us to upgrade units cheaply with Leo.

 

[greekguy]

I'll go for Sun Tzu's. Fast healing is the benefit I like in particular. The main savings for Leo's would be upgrading horsemen to knights, and we don't currently have any horses IIRC. Also worth noting is that Sun Tzu's would be available first, so we would have the chance to get a MGL earlier.

i just recently checked out the save, and we have 3 horsemen, and i think we might be building more for the upcoming war with the Dutch.

 

[Gregski]

I would be against Leo's, because we can simply get around the issue by upgrading only a select few units (any horsemen units and a couple of frontline spearmen). There is no urgent reason to upgrade units in 'safe' cities. Although the Chapel is tempting, the free barracks of Sun Tzu wins in my view though only on a narrow split decision.

 

[MOTH]

Since the use of SGL's is in the President's area of responsibility and the topic of Wonders is in mine we would either have to have multiple polls or one joint poll. With the President's permission I will initiate a joint approval poll on the use of the SGL.

My reading of this is that Sun Tzu's has the edge. Very little has been argued about location. I will argue that we should build it in a location that is in limited cultural pressure. This removes Donsignia, Camelot, and Bentley from the choices. I would also argue that there should be no foreign citizens to eliminate the chance of a long term flip. This eliminates any of the Indian cities. This leaves Roosting Tree, Provolutia, and Oxford. Of these, Oxford is too exposed in a Dutch war. It is possible that we might allocate Provolutia to hand building the FP. So this leaves my choice as Roosting Tree. The cultural expansion will help more here as we are on the edge of our current empire. I could also see building the FP in Roosting Tree and then getting Sun Tzu's in Provolutia instead.

The poll will be simple and clear:
Do you approve of using our SGL for building Sun Tzu's in Roosting Tree?

If it fails to win approval then it will be followed by another poll with either another location or another wonder.

If you have any other ideas and arguements on location then please make them known soon.

 

[classical_hero]

Thank you Furiey

 

[mad-bax]

A well reasoned argument with which I entirely agree MOTH. The joint poll is also a good idea. I'm not sure that you are required to poll the location though, but I guess it's your call.

 

[DaveShack]

There is no hurry to poll which wonder or where. The result of this discussion is really clear, keep Sir Isaac until we are ready to rush a medieval wonder.

 

[MOTH]

There is no hurry to poll which wonder or where. The result of this discussion is really clear, keep Sir Isaac until we are ready to rush a medieval wonder.

I disagree Dave. The implications of this as a policy can affect research and trading. Fuedalism could be available for trade at any time. If any AI was reasearching currency then our getting it has just shortened their time. Jump and AI to the MA and the scientific civs have a decent chance of getting it for free and trading it arround. If we don't have a policy in place to try and use the SGL for a specific wonder it will be more difficult for the Directors to plan for the possibility of acquiring Fuedalism before an AI builds (or partially cascades) this wonder.

I'll start polling during my lunch break.

 

[Furiey]

The what does affect our research and trading and we need to decide now because of that. The where does not, and may/will change with circumstances. The reasons MOTH gave for building in Roosting Tree now, may no longer be valid by the time we are able to build it. We are currently close to War with the Dutch, so running Sir Issac across to Oxford would probably not be a good idea. Engineering however is currently 50 turns away, OK that will probably come down, but our nation will have changed a lot in that time and I would hope that Oxford will no longer be isolated and Roosting Tree will be in the centre of our territory. So although I agree with Sun Tzu (we need to decide that to direct our research and trade), I do not want to commit to Roosting Tree at this time.

 

[Stuck_as_a_Mac]

That is my point as well, Furiey. As i stated in the polling thread, I really dont think we should commit ourselves to a city right now.

SaaM

 

[Nobody]

we could rush sun tzu and just build Leanados the old fashion way.

I am true Illuminati-supporter

i was tied up between making the La Cosa Nostra, or the Illuminati. and its not the da vinci code that is about Illuminati it's Angels and Demons