Isolated Japan advice

[dime]

Hey,

currently playing on Prince and starting to win regularly, however since I am too much of a builder and too little of a warmonger, I've started to use aggressive civs to "train" in conquest/domination victories... now, I've run into a set-up that doesn't quite favor this but is nevertheless interesting and thought I'd get some tips on approach

Map is standard, continents, high sea level... I am at around 2000BC, have explored enough to realize I have a continent - or rather a collection of three Islands to myself - I started getting a bit suspicious when I never ran into anyone, but apparently, there is no one around. The place is actually very attractive - I have room for around 15 very solid cities - due to the layout that can be best described as "snaking", more or less every city will be coastal and there appears to be at least 2 solid production sites. All sites are grassland dominated, there are loads of food resources but less of happiness resources.

Anyways - I started off going for early religion - an unconventional choice for Toku for sure, but I started with fishing and had fish + 2 crabs outside the capital and figured since I didn't need any immediate worker techs, I'd make a stab at it... I managed to found Hinduism before anyone founded Buddhism so apparently there are few spiritual AIs in the game. The rationale for this was further that I have a history of experiencing happiness cap problems with Japan and the religion (with Temples) is +2 happiness and culture, so figured it's worth it... given the situation, I'm happy with the result since I likely won't have to worry about negative diplomatic modifiers for a long time and it'll seriously help expansion (with happiness and org religion) and with abundant sea food resources and mining I'll be driving for Priesthood and Oracle to get me towards Optics...


Now - there are a couple of givens in this situation;

- I will not be able to wager any larger scale war until Astronomy for logistical reasons
- I have a tech disadvantage, since the likley set up is 1-2 continents... best case 2 continents with 3 AIs each, worst case 1 continent with 6 AIs, where they will have the relative advantage of tech trading and quicker research rate of techs. For this reason alone, Optics should be a priority
- Despite having the start of an extremely coastal empire, GL and Colossus may not be strong priorities, since I'll likely have few foreign trade routes and since I'll most likely b-line to Astronomy, making life span of Colossus potentially short
- I have plenty of room for expansion and no competition for the land - so getting e.g. Code of Laws/Currency etc. quickly to support expansion is probably wise
- Contrary to my normal Japan approach (getting CS+Machinery ASAP, then driving for Gunpowder), it appears getting samurais quickly is less of a priority...


I've never been in this type of situation before and with this much land to grab - and previous build-expansion type games I've had serious problems with overexpanding which has stifled research, something I really cannot allow here... at the same time, I feel I have a golden opportunity to build a very strong base for both economy and production that would see me behind early before having a very strong mid-to end game... I expect I likely have 2-3 times more "available land" vs. any AI, assuming they don't kill each other off...

So - any advice on how to go about this would be very appreciated!

/Andreas

 

[Thedrin]

Vanilla Tokugawa or Warlords (organised or protective)?

How are you for building the Pyramids?

Besides the major problem of balancing a low science rate (relative to other civs) with a high expansion rate the other major problem I experience in isolated continents starts are low population caps - usually I'd only have a monopoly on one or two different luxuries or health resources and barely anything else.

If this will afflict my game and I can get the Pyramids I'd go for a couple of cities dedicated to scientist specialists combined with representation. Generating most of my research directly through beakers will mean that lowering the science slider won't have a huge negative impact on my research so faster expansion is more feasible. It also means once I've gotten all of my cities up and running that I'll be able to move some of my commerce into the culture slider boosting my city populations without spending gold on military units that I won't need for a long time. The extra happiness can be turned into more scientists. Generally, I find creating scientist cities is most powerful (compared to not doing so) in isolated starts. (I'm assuming since you have so much coastal space that you'll get a good boost to health from harbours)

I'd still build the collosus if you have a coastal city capable of doing so with nothing else to do. Even if it becomes obsolete faster than usual it will still get you to that point faster.

 

[Pogel]

This situation does kind of suck for Toku. Normally this would be a set-up for a culture win but I expect you don't want to do that with Toku. I would probably look to do an Oracle->Metal Casting slingshot and get the Colossus anyway. It may expire at Astronomy, but if you have a lot of coastal cities it will help a lot with the maintenance, as those cities can start paying for themselves pretty quickly. When Astronomy kicks in you will have lots more trade routes (plus harbours and mature cottages) to compensate for the loss of coastal commerce. Colossus is an easy get and you'll want MC early for forges to help build infrastructure. The Great Lighthouse may pay dividends after astronomy, depending on the diplomatic situation, but I'd make it a lower priority.

Expand as rapidly as you can, cottaging early. CoL should be a fairly high priority, for the courthouses, but don't rush it as you won't benefit much from a second religion - it could well make spreading of you state religion a pain.

I would also look to settle horses early in preference to metal to get the chariots out. They are better barbarian killers and handy settler escorts, and if promoted to sentry will be useful throughout the game, even if you don't promote them (keeping a sentry unit with your SOD or pillage stack is very worthwhile). I would look to manage the barbs rather than fog bust as they'll be your only source of experience for a while. I've never had a problem with barbs if I have early chariots and you'll have axes well before swordsmen become a problem.

Last thing. Production spent on workers in this sort of scenario is hardly ever wasted. Workers are the key to rapid expansion - each city needs to have plenty of farms for fast growth (and whipping) as well as those early cottages. The workers should also have a plenty of chopping to do.

 

[dutchfire]

Maybe try cultural, trying to get 3 religions, and beelining for music for the cathedrals.

 

[Pogel]

One other thing - check out the current ALC game (ALC 9). Similar situation - all alone on a continent with an aggressive civ, though not quite as alone as initially thought. You may well have another continent not too far to the north or south.

 

[dime]

Vanilla Tokugawa or Warlords (organised or protective)?

Warlords... so I have Protective to help me vs. barbs

How are you for building the Pyramids?

Besides the major problem of balancing a low science rate (relative to other civs) with a high expansion rate the other major problem I experience in isolated continents starts are low population caps - usually I'd only have a monopoly on one or two different luxuries or health resources and barely anything else.

If this will afflict my game and I can get the Pyramids I'd go for a couple of cities dedicated to scientist specialists combined with representation. Generating most of my research directly through beakers will mean that lowering the science slider won't have a huge negative impact on my research so faster expansion is more feasible.

Good point... never attempted a specialist economy w/o a philosophical leader actually... I guess, the problem is I don't really have an early site with very high production and also no stone, so I opted not to go for the Pyramids, thinking it would hardly be possible... now, I'd guess it is too late.

Generally speaking - would you go for a specialist economy where settling the GPs is a big thing, or simply go for it based on the actual specialists bringing the bulk of the research? I initially settled most of my GPs except for using scientists to build academies, but lately I've been using the GPs mainly for getting immediate sciences - on the principle of getting further in the tech tree early... not sure whether that's the best approach, however when calculating how many turns a settled GP would require to produce the same output as instantly getting a 1500 beaker (on epic) tech the trade off (including earlier access) makes sense to me...

Anyways - with the amount of coast I have, I think that I will have few "true" GP farm opportunities.

Health will generally not be a problem... I have all the seafood resources and will as you point out have a harbour in virtually every city. In addition, I've so far seen game, cows, sugar and I think corn

I'd still build the collosus if you have a coastal city capable of doing so with nothing else to do. Even if it becomes obsolete faster than usual it will still get you to that point faster.

Good point

 

[dime]

This situation does kind of suck for Toku. Normally this would be a set-up for a culture win but I expect you don't want to do that with Toku. I would probably look to do an Oracle->Metal Casting slingshot and get the Colossus anyway. It may expire at Astronomy, but if you have a lot of coastal cities it will help a lot with the maintenance, as those cities can start paying for themselves pretty quickly. When Astronomy kicks in you will have lots more trade routes (plus harbours and mature cottages) to compensate for the loss of coastal commerce. Colossus is an easy get and you'll want MC early for forges to help build infrastructure.

Good point - will definitely go for this, and I agree forges will be needed to compensate for the relatively low production output of the tiles... thankfully, I have quite alot of forests that won't be chopped!

Expand as rapidly as you can, cottaging early. CoL should be a fairly high priority, for the courthouses, but don't rush it as you won't benefit much from a second religion - it could well make spreading of you state religion a pain.

This makes alot of sense... especially if all the others are on one continent, in that case I def. want them to have different religions...

I would also look to settle horses early in preference to metal to get the chariots out. They are better barbarian killers and handy settler escorts, and if promoted to sentry will be useful throughout the game, even if you don't promote them (keeping a sentry unit with your SOD or pillage stack is very worthwhile). I would look to manage the barbs rather than fog bust as they'll be your only source of experience for a while. I've never had a problem with barbs if I have early chariots and you'll have axes well before swordsmen become a problem.

Thanks for this advice - never used "sentry" promotions since I usually have little barb problems as the fog of war space is filled early... Also, with the 2xcity defense, 1xdrill archers Toku cranks out with barracks, the actual city defense will be reasonably well taken care of without melee troops initially

Last thing. Production spent on workers in this sort of scenario is hardly ever wasted. Workers are the key to rapid expansion - each city needs to have plenty of farms for fast growth (and whipping) as well as those early cottages. The workers should also have a plenty of chopping to do.

Even with religion + temple, I think most cities will cap out at around size 6 until I get happiness resources hooked up... that said, I don't have many available... hence, would it be feasible to focus on cottages as there is a pretty tight size cap? Generally speaking, what share of farms do you tend to use for cities? I have tended to build either or, but not both... but I do see the point of throwing a couple of farms in to drive more growth. Only downside is the turns spent on the farm won't advance the development of the cottage...

Thanks for the input - will take a look at the ALC as well!

/Andreas

 

[oyzar]

You can do the oracle / metalcasting / pyramids gambit illustrated in one of the ALC's 7 i belive.

 

[Pogel]

Thanks for this advice - never used "sentry" promotions since I usually have little barb problems as the fog of war space is filled early... Also, with the 2xcity defense, 1xdrill archers Toku cranks out with barracks, the actual city defense will be reasonably well taken care of without melee troops initially

Yes, those protective archers are nice, but they only really help with an assault on the city and not on the improvements. Barbs like to pillage, unfortunately. Chariots can give you a better active defense. They also eat axemen for breakfast. The sentry is good for fog busting, obviously, but also for settler escort as they help with nasty barb pops and also travel at the same speed as settlers.

Even with religion + temple, I think most cities will cap out at around size 6 until I get happiness resources hooked up... that said, I don't have many available... hence, would it be feasible to focus on cottages as there is a pretty tight size cap? Generally speaking, what share of farms do you tend to use for cities? I have tended to build either or, but not both... but I do see the point of throwing a couple of farms in to drive more growth. Only downside is the turns spent on the farm won't advance the development of the cottage...

In initial city development, even if I plan to cottage the whole lot, I will generally have a few farms early on. Their sole purpose is to grow population as quickly as possible after a whip or if the hapiness cap increases. They are not long term and will get converted to cottages as the city grows. It's a bit micro-managey, but population growth can be pretty slow sometimes.

 

[carl corey]

Don't have time for a more detailed look now, but solving happiness problems is pretty easy: go for Monarchy and addopt Hereditary Rule. Have a city or two dedicated to getting out archers and you'll have all the happiness you need. Also, if you have gold, silver or gems you could benefit from the happiness brought by forges. And you have temples and will have markets (ivory? fur? etc), so I don't think you need to worry too much.

As for the Pyramids, forget about them. They could have been interesting since you have the seafood resources to support specialists, but it will take you way too much time to build them and you don't seem to have any bonus on your side. Not industrious, no stone, not even philosophical to use the Great Wall gambit to get a Great Engineer. You're better off concentrating on the Great Lighthouse, the Temple of Artemis (better start early on it, since it's pretty expensive; maybe whip some archers and dump the excess hammers into it) and the Colossus. You'll have a pretty good income from trade routes and water tiles in your coastal cities.

 

[carl corey]

Oh, and think of going for Engineering too, to build Castles as they give a trade route in Warlords.

 

[Thedrin]

Trade routes aren't of much use in this game since there won't be any foreign routes til after Astronomy. I wouldn't bother about the Great Lighthouse and definently not castles. Engineering is an expensive technology and a big detour from a rush to Astronomy.

 

[carl corey]

Well, I don't know about that. He will have lots of cities, most of them coastal. Yes, there won't be any early foreign trade routes, but I think the internal ones might be ok too. dime, do you have the starting save or a fairly early one? I'd like to give this one a try to see what the trade route strategy brings. aelf is also playing a trade route oriented game in his 3rd Emperor Challenge and he'll probably only have one AI to trade with early on after he starts the war with the other. I don't think you're that much worse trading with yourself if you manage to put down a good number of cities.

And yeah, Engineering and castles may be a bit too much in terms of beakers/hammers to be worth it.

 

[Thedrin]

If you have that early save (or the first turn autosave though it may be too easy) I wouldn't mind a shot at it as well.

 

[MartinhoMukanga]

I think aelf is trying a trade route based game in emperors challenge 3 so you def should take a look.
You should settle as many cities as possible and cottage most so that you can use the gold to boost your research. Trade routes are good too but engineering is a step-back in astronomy beeline.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

I would recommend Great Lighthouse as well:

- +2 trade routes to every city can help finance your early expansion - you want as many cities as you can as quick as you can regardless of what that does to your tech rate (unless it drops below zero). Cottage them like a maniac and watch that science rate increase rapidly.

- You get great merchants which help finance the rapid expansion. Settle early ones for extra gold and then once you get optics you can get some enormous cash from trade missions.

- Its easy to get - any wonder which has a prerequisite building seems to be easy to beat the AI to.

- It will be huge once you get Astronomy. Remember to exchange maps to get its full advantage.

- If you go for a culture win, you can easily avoid researching Corporation and losing its benefits.

- Pyramids are a bad bet if you don't know who you are playing against and you don't have stone.

- Oracle is doable, but you have to be quick to focus on it which means that you can't expand as quickly. In your situation I'd rather expand quickly and get the continent settled. You have more time with the Great lighthouse.

 

[MartinhoMukanga]

yes, the great lightouse is great too

 

[dime]

I've attached the initial save for those of you that asked for it... I think, GL may be interesting considering it would basically bring two extra commerce to each city I build - however, it's not high on the priority list initiallly...

Would be interesting to hear from those of you that test out this game what you did and why!

 

[carl corey]

Thanks for the save. I'll give it a try this weekend and report back.