Israel Navy Opens Fire on Gaza Aid Flotilla II

[ParkCungHee]

They brought this on themselves, and they got what they deserved. If I had been in charge, I'd have just sunk the ship in retaliation and as a warning to others not to mess with Israel.

And I think that's all that needs to be said about who the real supporters of terrorism are.

 

[Ajidica]

Oh give me a break. Israel DOES ALLOW aid to Gaza. They just reserved the right to inspect it to prevent weapons and explosives from being smuggled there.

From the BBC

The UN relief agency for Palestinian refugees Unrwa's list of household items that have been refused entry at various times includes light bulbs, candles, matches, books, musical instruments, crayons, clothing, shoes, mattresses, sheets, blankets, pasta, tea, coffee, chocolate, nuts, shampoo and conditioner.

And a full list of commercial goods allowed into Gaza:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/05_05_10_gazaimports.pdf
Interestingly, toothpaste and hand sanitizer gel was only allowed in in 2009, with shoes only being allowed in 2010. I never knew that hand sanitizer, toothpaste, and shoes were weapons or explosives.
Fuel, even for agriculture, is in exceptionaly short supply forcing even more people into destitution. The blockade doesn't harm Hamas, they can smuggle weapons and combat supplies in. The blockade overwhelmingly harms the civilians by restricting items as inane as toothpaste and shoes.
Here is article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7545636.stm

 

[Winner]

From the BBC

And a full list of commercial goods allowed into Gaza:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/05_05_10_gazaimports.pdf
Interestingly, toothpaste and hand sanitizer gel was only allowed in in 2009, with shoes only being allowed in 2010. I never knew that hand sanitizer, toothpaste, and shoes were weapons or explosives.
Fuel, even for agriculture, is in exceptionaly short supply forcing even more people into destitution. The blockade doesn't harm Hamas, they can smuggle weapons and combat supplies in. The blockade overwhelmingly harms the civilians by restricting items as inane as toothpaste and shoes.
Here is article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7545636.stm

Items that contain chemicals that can be used in weapons production need to be regulated.

In any case, Israel is way too generous considering that Gaza is a territory controlled by a regime whose stated goal is the destruction of Israel and its people. It's funny that this regime is getting water and electricity from the state whose existence it doesn't even recognize.

I've suggested it before, but Israel should tighten the blockade. No aid, no electricity, no fuel, no medicine, and later no food and no water, unless Hamas unconditionally surrenders all its weapons, releases Gilat Shalit, relinquishes political control, and leaves the Gaza strip.

That's an easy and relatively quick way to get rid of Hamas without using military force in the process, I wonder when Israel finally does it.

 

[MobBoss]

As RedRelph pointed out, it is the majority opinion in Europe.

Oh. Well, gee, if Europe supports it, then its gotta be right.

You can't explain that.

 

[Ajidica]

Items that contain chemicals that can be used in weapons production need to be regulated.

How in the name of all that is holy can toothpaste and shoes be used as weapons?

No aid, no electricity, no fuel, no medicine, and later no food and no water, unless Hamas unconditionally surrenders all its weapons, releases Gilat Shalit, relinquishes political control, and leaves the Gaza strip.

So you advocate genocide and intentional warfare against a civilian population. I shouldn't have to tell you how many international laws that violates. Hell, we have dragged Balkan warlords to the ICJ for less then that.
If Israel implements a policy as strict as what you advocate, then prepare for the Israeli leadership to be charged with Crimes against Humanity.

 

[RedRalph]

He does indeed advocate genocide. I'm not sure he has ever really thought what that would look like or what the consequences would be.

 

[asbestos]

All Israel had to do was issue an apology (and it was given every opportunity to do so by Turkey's government). Israel, it seems, is acting irrationally and forgetting the importance of diplomacy.

Good on Turkey for actually standing up for its murdered citizens, unlike the USA, which did nothing when one of its own was killed.

 

[aronnax]

UN calls every act of self-defence "excessive", so it's no surprise that it so calls a clear self-defence by a small group of soldiers that were being beaten to death by clubs and metal poles in the hands of a Turkish mob.

Dismiss the UN when it is against your argument.

I expect Turkey to apologize to Israel for sending a boatload of terrorist-sympathizers into Israeli-controlled waters where the IDF is enforcing a blockade the UN says is legal

Use the UN to back up own argument.

AWESOME JOB!

An advice to the Turkish terrorists - if you attack armed soldiers and corner them, expect to be shot. As far as I am concerned, they shouldn't have been there to begin with, and even then they shouldn't have attacked the boarding party. They brought this on themselves, and they got what they deserved. If I had been in charge, I'd have just sunk the ship in retaliation and as a warning to others not to mess with Israel.

So board the ship in a threatening manner, expect them to remain calm and shoot them if they put up a bit of resistance? As much as a 50 year old man holding a pipe can cause damage, shooting them 5 times and then shooting injured activists? Israel's military orders were like thugs, I mean for goodness sakes, they were armed with pipes! throw some tear gas or force the ship to port, not rush in and murder people.

There are 3500 other 'special consultative units' on the UN, I doubt the UN can keep a perfect eye on all of them to make sure they are as legit as they say they are.

So later... when the UN did an investigation on them and couldn't find any evidence against them... are they still keeping an eye?

You're right, Israel is the only one to declare IHH as a terrorist organization, but others have their suspicions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IHH_(Tu...with_terrorism

The UN report itself cast suspicions on the motives of the flotilla organizers, especially the IHH.

Thankfully, suspicion is not equal to guilty

 

[Tee Kay]

Thankfully, suspicion is not equal to guilty

In Occupied Palestine, you're guilty until proven innocent.

 

[MobBoss]

Israel has nothing to apologize for.

Could it have done things better? Absolutely. But lets not forget that there were several ships in that flotilla that night and violence only erupted on ONE - the one where they had pre-planned a attack on any IDF troops that boarded their ship. And attack they did, swarming and almost overwhelming the boarding troops, beating them with baseball bats, axe handles, and stabbing on soldier with his own combat knife. As I recall, one soldier was also shot with his own pistol, and then tossed over a rail to the lower deck. After peacefully boarding and getting the other ships in the flotilla to turn away, they were totally not expecting the level of resistence they encountered.

So, I am a total loss as to why people think Israel should apologize for that. As long as Hamas, as the controlling political entity of Palistine continues to authorize and execute the firing of rockets and mortars into Israeli citys (often specifically aimed at childrens schools) the blockade is indeed legal by international law. The soldiers involved were merely doing their legal duty to encounter the flotilla, escort it to a controlled port so the goods could be processed prior to being allowed into Gaza. What happened there was indeed regretable, but lets not pretend there wasnt violence initiated on the part of the crew and passengers of the single ship involved.

 

[Winner]

How in the name of all that is holy can toothpaste and shoes be used as weapons?

Toothpaste and shoes.

So you advocate genocide

Let me stop you right here - I do not.

and intentional warfare against a civilian population.

Blockade, not warfare.

I shouldn't have to tell you how many international laws that violates. Hell, we have dragged Balkan warlords to the ICJ for less then that.
If Israel implements a policy as strict as what you advocate, then prepare for the Israeli leadership to be charged with Crimes against Humanity.

Hamás is a crime against humanity. It's removal by any means necessary is a humanitarian goal that would first and foremost benefit the Palestinians in Gaza.

Faced with starvation, Hamás would have no other option but to surrender. At the same time, Israel could offer a way out of the Strip to anybody willing to renounce terrorism, be searched, and placed in a temporary internment camp until the situation in Gaza is resolved.

He does indeed advocate genocide. I'm not sure he has ever really thought what that would look like or what the consequences would be.

I never propose something I haven't thought through. This wouldn't be a genocide by any stretch of the definition.

 

[Winner]

All Israel had to do was issue an apology (and it was given every opportunity to do so by Turkey's government). Israel, it seems, is acting irrationally and forgetting the importance of diplomacy.

Good on Turkey for actually standing up for its murdered citizens, unlike the USA, which did nothing when one of its own was killed.

Again, why should Israel apologize? For what? For upholding a legal blockade?

Dismiss the UN when it is against your argument.

Use the UN to back up own argument.

AWESOME JOB!

I should have said "even the UN" to underline the purpose of that sentence. If even the anti-Israeli UN says the blockade is legal, then it's something worth noting.

So board the ship in a threatening manner, expect them to remain calm and shoot them if they put up a bit of resistance? As much as a 50 year old man holding a pipe can cause damage, shooting them 5 times and then shooting injured activists? Israel's military orders were like thugs, I mean for goodness sakes, they were armed with pipes! throw some tear gas or force the ship to port, not rush in and murder people.

If I ever visit Singapore, can I beat you with a metal pipe?

No, sorry, I don't mean to, but you're clearly totally underestimating the danger the troops were in. If you've seen the footage from the Israeli helicopters, you must know the "activists" attacked them savagely, clearly threatening their very lives. In such a situation, a use of deadly force is fully justified.

 

[Truronian]

Winner, what exactly do you think will happen to the people of Gaza if they have no food or water coming in?

 

[Ajidica]

(often specifically aimed at childrens schools)

Source please.

Toothpaste and shoes.

I suppose Israel should put teddy bears on the list because explosives can be smuggled in those.
However, I will point out that you sad the blockade only covered explosives and weapons, neither of those things are in themselves explosives. If you meant that the blockade covers anything that could possibly be used in explosives development and deployment, then you should have said that.
In this day and age, you can make explosives from just about anything, however, there reaches a point where prudence transforms into paranoia.

Blockade, not warfare.

Blockade, such a nice, sanitary term for what amounts to starvation warfare.

Faced with starvation, Hamás would have no other option but to surrender.

Give me one government or government body that has been overthrown by blockades and sanctions.

At the same time, Israel could offer a way out of the Strip to anybody willing to renounce terrorism, be searched, and placed in a temporary internment camp until the situation in Gaza is resolved.

That wouldn't work, period. Temporary 'internment' camps (bad choice of a name) have the bad habit of becoming permenant. What your 'solution' would be is a forcible attempt to drive the local population out of their homes, something which already pushes the boundary of international law. That, combined with the settlements being built in lands recognized as Palestinian under the UN Mandate at the 67 borders because the native population is 'not there' or 'doesn't posess proper permit ownership' would result in few people taking the offer because that means abandoning their homes to what they percieve as an Israeli attempt to seize their land. You cannot fight a militant organization by using civilians as a bargaining chip. The French tried that in Algeria, and they failed. Badly. It simply doesn't work.

 

[MobBoss]

Winner, what exactly do you think will happen to the people of Gaza if they have no food or water coming in?

Except they did have food and water coming in; along with other life sustainment goods as well.

This wasnt a total blockade, and foodstuffs and water were indeed allowed entry commonly. Lets at least accept that as the fact it is.

 

[asbestos]

Again, why should Israel apologize? For what? For upholding a legal blockade?

For killing civilians in international waters. I can think of a handful of ways the situation could have been handled rationally, without provoking an international incident.

Imagine the outrage if a North Korean squad had opened fire on a German freighter in international waters carrying food to malnourished people in North Korea. Let's not even bring up the issue of whether it's right to break NK's "blockade".

 

[Winner]

Winner, what exactly do you think will happen to the people of Gaza if they have no food or water coming in?

Scenario 1:
They'll try to leave - through Israeli checkpoints where they'll be searched, questioned, and then moved to provisional internment camps, where they'll receive food, water, and medical attention. Eventually, only Hamás and its hardcore supporters will remain in Gaza, and they can starve to death for all I care. Alternatively, Israel could finish them off using military force. Gaza will then be thoroughly searched and demilitarized, after which the inhabitants will be allowed to return.

Scenario 2:
The Palestinians in Gaza realize that Hamás rule is threatening their very survival and rise up against it. This will force Hamás to abandon Gaza for some other Arab country (most likely Egypt), which Israel will tacitly allow, provided they leave their weapons in place.

 

[MobBoss]

Source please.

I am actually surprised you even asked for a source. Tons of hits from just a couple of generic google searches.

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&...gc.r_pw.&fp=7d86af9665111856&biw=1536&bih=736

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&...gc.r_pw.&fp=7d86af9665111856&biw=1536&bih=736

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&...gc.r_pw.&fp=7d86af9665111856&biw=1536&bih=736

 

[Ajidica]

I am actually surprised you even asked for a source. Tons of hits from just a couple of generic google searches.

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&...gc.r_pw.&fp=7d86af9665111856&biw=1536&bih=736

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&...gc.r_pw.&fp=7d86af9665111856&biw=1536&bih=736

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&...gc.r_pw.&fp=7d86af9665111856&biw=1536&bih=736

So attacks on Israeli schools: Bad
Israeli attacks on Ambulances and Apartments: Not bad
Do I have that right? Neither side is in any way innocent here.

This wasnt a total blockade, and foodstuffs and water were indeed allowed entry commonly. Lets at least accept that as the fact it is.

Fun Fact: Wheat, beans, and rice were only allowed into Gaza in 2009.

 

[MobBoss]

So attacks on Israeli schools: Bad
Israeli attacks on Ambulances and Apartments: Not bad

Well, when Hamas hides either in those or near them, what do you expect exactly?

Fun Fact: Wheat, beans, and rice were only allowed into Gaza in 2009.

Fun Fact: those are food items.