Israeli security Cabinet will work to 'remove' Arafat

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by G-Man
Ofcource removing Arafat won't be an act of peace. It would be an act of war done in order to enable peace. Hitler was removed by force. Does it mean there's no real peace between Britain and Germany?

Peace with the Palestinians won't come if you attempt to achieve it by use of your own force. You'll have to work with them, and not just kill them. Regardless of what people may think of Arafat, you won't get very far by imposing peace on the Palestinians. If you ignore them, any "peace" would be worthless. Unless they actually agree, not much will change.

Originally posted by G-Man
How is fighting a terrorist terrorism? Terrorism is aimed at civilians. A man leading an active militia and responsible for the deaths of thousands is no more of a civilian than Bin Laden is.

Assasinating Arafat would be a terrorist action. There's no doubt about that. Killing anybody for political gain is terrorism.

 

[Stile]

I don't see why people are so upset that Israel would expel him. Jordan, Lebanon and Syria have already expelled him. Where was the world outrage then? Apparently the only people who want him are suicidal Palestians. Sure, Egypt has offered sanctuary, but they are more vocal about keeping him in Israel.

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by phoenix_night
Peace with the Palestinians won't come if you attempt to achieve it by use of your own force. You'll have to work with them, and not just kill them. Regardless of what people may think of Arafat, you won't get very far by imposing peace on the Palestinians. If you ignore them, any "peace" would be worthless. Unless they actually agree, not much will change.

We won't impose peace. The leaders will still be the same Palestinian leaders there are today, only they'll actually be able to do something. Rajub tried to fight terrorism and Arafat fired him. Abu Mazen and Dahlan wanted to fight terrorism and Arafat forced them out of power by a threat to their lives.
Again, I give you the example of Germany - Hitler was forced out, allowing the country to be rebuilt with peaceful leaders.

Originally posted by phoenix_night
Assasinating Arafat would be a terrorist action. There's no doubt about that. Killing anybody for political gain is terrorism.

No it isn't. Terrorism is attacking civilians for political gain. Killing Arafat, just like killing Bin Laden or any other terrorist, would be a completely legitimate act of self defence. Everyone is equal before the law - the fact you're a political leader doesn't mean you can perform atrocities and kill thousands without being stopped.

 

[Sickman]

are blind as long as they want in this issue.

The least the blind could do is to get stick or dog and try to get some knowledge of their surroundings instead of just staying put and yelling:
"I can't see anything! Tell me what you see because I cannot! Maybe if you say what you see I can see it too!"

As I have learned it's just waste of time trying to teach the blind to see.

Be as it may.

 

[G-Man]

Sickman - Big words from someone who can't even say the names of the groups he's talking about.... Ofcource, you're right and anyone else are blind, despite the fact you don't even seem to be able to defend your arguments.

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by G-Man
We won't impose peace. The leaders will still be the same Palestinian leaders there are today, only they'll actually be able to do something. Rajub tried to fight terrorism and Arafat fired him. Abu Mazen and Dahlan wanted to fight terrorism and Arafat forced them out of power by a threat to their lives.
Again, I give you the example of Germany - Hitler was forced out, allowing the country to be rebuilt with peaceful leaders.

You are imposing peace if you are using violence to achieve it. I fail to see how you can make an argument against that. Using violence, deciding how to make peace and acting in your own interests only; the outcome does not constitute a peace.

I fail to see the relevance of Hitler and Nazi Germany.

Originally posted by G-Man
No it isn't. Terrorism is attacking civilians for political gain. Killing Arafat, just like killing Bin Laden or any other terrorist, would be a completely legitimate act of self defence. Everyone is equal before the law - the fact you're a political leader doesn't mean you can perform atrocities and kill thousands without being stopped.

It is terrorism.

They are suggesting killing for political gain, correct? That's terrorism.

You may decide that he deserves death - that doesn't make it okay. More importantly, it doesn't change the fact that it would be terrorism. You may believe you have a just cause, but so do the people you label terrorists every day of the week.

 

[Sickman]

I happened to have some Israeli friends some years back and some of my friends have visited Israel...most of those people have told that there are many views about the whole conflict and also what they think about the current government of Israel and how they handle the situation.

Israel-Palestinian issue isn't black and white.

For your information I can rename few other terrorist groups that usually don't get into news. However I find it amusing you are more concerned how many terrorist groups I can name when the real issue is mainly about something else than from tiny details.

Personally I don't want to get too deeply into this kind of issue because there are always those in the boards that always fail to see other side of the story and keep forgeting the whole history behind the conflict.

I want to point out that you jump into conclusions about my arguments about this issue. My only argument was that you are blind if you cannot see Israel military terrorizing anyone. It has happened years back, it's happening and will continue to happen.

However biggest problem is that both sides never seems to get over the argument that "We won't do it, if they're forcing us to do it". Both sides lack the courage to give something up VOLUNTARILY so the peace process (if there really has been any) could continue.

As said...Arafat could voluntarily choose to leave the Palestinian state instead of just digging in and waiting that Israel gets mad enough to drive him away. Arafat could say that he does this "for peace" but of course there is the danger that he would lose his face in the eyes of palestinians supporters.

Do you get my point, now G-Man or do I continue?
(And sorry if my English is lacking)

 

[stupidradical]

1) israel has been and is continually stealing land from the palestinians. any map will tell you that.

2) the palestinians have a right and the duty to defend themselves.

3) unfortunately, they are an indigenous population with virtually no resources so they have no chance of fightng back the fifth biggest millitary power in the world, at least not by conventional methods such as attacking their millitary.

the fact that they actually have so little to live for that they choose to kill themselves and some other with them tells you how extremely bad their situation is.

if you arent able to understand why the cartoon ( and mario feldberg, obviously ) is racist just shows how common and accepted anti-arab racism has become. suppose you had a cartoon with two israeli soldiers - with huge hooknoses, of course - aiming at a little palestinian girl or some other stupid cliche youd probably call it racist right away.

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by phoenix_night
You are imposing peace if you are using violence to achieve it. I fail to see how you can make an argument against that. Using violence, deciding how to make peace and acting in your own interests only; the outcome does not constitute a peace.

I fail to see the relevance of Hitler and Nazi Germany.

We're fighting those who attack us. We don't impose peace, we remove Arafat. Peace will be achieved through negotiations with the Palestinian peaceful leaders.
The relevance of Nazi Germany is that it shows that peace can be achieved through the use of force. There was war, the allies won, and had peace with Germany ever since.

Originally posted by phoenix_night
It is terrorism.

They are suggesting killing for political gain, correct? That's terrorism.

You may decide that he deserves death - that doesn't make it okay. More importantly, it doesn't change the fact that it would be terrorism. You may believe you have a just cause, but so do the people you label terrorists every day of the week.

Terrorism only applies when talking about civilians. Arafat is not a civilian, thus it can't be terrorism.

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by Sickman
For your information I can rename few other terrorist groups that usually don't get into news. However I find it amusing you are more concerned how many terrorist groups I can name when the real issue is mainly about something else than from tiny details.

I'm not concerned with their names, but I would imagine someone who knows the situation deeply would know the names of the groups he's talking about.

Originally posted by Sickman
I want to point out that you jump into conclusions about my arguments about this issue. My only argument was that you are blind if you cannot see Israel military terrorizing anyone. It has happened years back, it's happening and will continue to happen.

I don't understand what you're talking about, so I'll have to ask you to expend a bit about it.

Originally posted by Sickman
However biggest problem is that both sides never seems to get over the argument that "We won't do it, if they're forcing us to do it". Both sides lack the courage to give something up VOLUNTARILY so the peace process (if there really has been any) could continue.

Israel gave up a lot for the peace process, as well as for the cease fires.

Originally posted by Sickman
As said...Arafat could voluntarily choose to leave the Palestinian state instead of just digging in and waiting that Israel gets mad enough to drive him away. Arafat could say that he does this "for peace" but of course there is the danger that he would lose his face in the eyes of palestinians supporters.

Arafat is a dictator. When have you heard about a dictator leaving his country for his people?

Originally posted by Sickman
Do you get my point, now G-Man or do I continue?
(And sorry if my English is lacking)

Continue please, you're talking in very general terms so far.

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by stupidradical
1) israel has been and is continually stealing land from the palestinians. any map will tell you that.

2) the palestinians have a right and the duty to defend themselves.

3) unfortunately, they are an indigenous population with virtually no resources so they have no chance of fightng back the fifth biggest millitary power in the world, at least not by conventional methods such as attacking their millitary.

1) There's not really such a thing as Palestinian lands for the simple reason that the Palestinians never accepted any agreement regarding the division of lands. Any historian will tell you that.

2) The Palestinians started the war and broke every cease fire.

3) So not only they started a war and broke the peace process in what turned out to be a fatal misjudgement of Israel's abilities, the ones to be paying for that mistake are innocent civilians?

Originally posted by stupidradical
the fact that they actually have so little to live for that they choose to kill themselves and some other with them tells you how extremely bad their situation is.

Suicide bombers are hardly very poor. May of them have large private houses, two of them actually lived in Britain, etc. We have many poor people in Israel as well, many of them because of the actions of the Palestinians yet you don't see Israeli suicide bombers.
Palestinians are in such bad conditions because the intifada destroyed their economy and because they have a corrupt leadership. Arafat is responsible for both of these things.

Originally posted by stupidradical
if you arent able to understand why the cartoon ( and mario feldberg, obviously ) is racist just shows how common and accepted anti-arab racism has become. suppose you had a cartoon with two israeli soldiers - with huge hooknoses, of course - aiming at a little palestinian girl or some other stupid cliche youd probably call it racist right away.

I still don't see what's racist about it. It doesn't say all Palestinians are terrorists, just that the Palestinians that kill Israelis are such.

 

[Mario Feldberg]

Originally posted by stupidradical
if you arent able to understand why the cartoon ( and mario feldberg, obviously ) is racist just shows how common and accepted anti-arab racism has become.

Yep, bad isn't it

 

[stupidradical]

that you consider a fascist as berlusconi not only human, but also a great politician made me not want to take you seriously. now im not able to at all. no of course racism is not bad. you should think germans would have learned from their mistake by now.

g-man:

1) they were never given a serious deal either

2) i think the opposite.

3) see 2#

no offense, but im not going to continue this thread forever. threads like these usually go on for too long. and are usually just repeating facts we view differently without getting anywhere.

 

[stupidradical]

that you consider a fascist as berlusconi not only human, but also a great politician made me not want to take you seriously. now im not able to at all. no of course racism is not bad. you should think germans would have learned from their mistake by now.

g-man:

1) they were never given a serious deal either

2) i think the opposite.

3) see 2#

no offense, but im not going to continue this thread forever. threads like these usually go on for too long. and are usually just repeating facts we view differently without getting anywhere.

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by G-Man
We're fighting those who attack us. We don't impose peace, we remove Arafat. Peace will be achieved through negotiations with the Palestinian peaceful leaders.

The point is: by deciding who you want to debate with, through the use of force, you are already imposing peace. You will not accept the oppostition's terms. You don't like the people you have to negotiate with. That would be a problem. But to solve this problem with murder is exercising your force and power, it is imposing peace. But, it is not peace. How can you negotiate a peace when it is done with the use of force, guns and weapons, and nothing more? If you do that, if you attempt peace by force; you won't get peace. You get occupation, you get enslavement, but you don't get peace.

You may attempt to use your force, your military might or anything similar, but if you use power as the way to peace, then you shall never achieve that peace. Nothing will change until it is realised that might can not make things right.

Originally posted by G-Man
The relevance of Nazi Germany is that it shows that peace can be achieved through the use of force. There was war, the allies won, and had peace with Germany ever since.

That has nothing to do with the current situation concerning Palestine and Israel.

The allies were at war with Germany, the allies won. Peace followed. But there is no link between this and the Palestinian situation. What are you trying to prove? That power and strength determine what is right and wrong? That guns and killing are the way to go? Or something else?

But Germany signed a peace. The point I am making is that the Palestinians must make a peace. Only then can the terrorism and fighting come to an end. You can't make that peace for them. Unless they can do so, there will be little progress.

Originally posted by G-Man
Terrorism only applies when talking about civilians. Arafat is not a civilian, thus it can't be terrorism.

Assassination of an opposition leader is terrorism. Why doesn't it apply to political figures? May you murder such people without fear of any consequences? Why? If you seek political gain through murder, then you engage in terrorism. It's as simple as that. Your logic here, it seems, is beyond sight. Even yours, maybe?

Let's look at September the 11th. Are all political figures not counted, not recorded as deaths? Deaths as a result of terrorism? Were the hijackers headed for the Pentagon not terrorists at all?

If Palestinians were to assassinate any Israeli political figure, or even leader, would that not be terrorism? Of course it would be terrorism. That establishes the fact that: people in politics are most certainly as eligible for the title of victims of terrorism as any other person.

So why is this not terrorism? Because you judge them unfavourably? That by no means would justify such an action. Or would it? Could such a case be justified? Regardless, we have a case of terrorism. If you choose to pass judgement on who should live and who should die, then why you? Why the not the Palestinians? Why not the people you refer to, when you use the term "terrorists"? Everybody has their opinion of who is deserving, and what is right. If you wish to act upon your opinions of this nature, what right have you to deny any others this right? More importantly, whether you believe, or all believe an action of this nature is just, it is still terrorism. That would be a matter of fact.

 

[Leha]

Originally posted by stupidradical
that you consider a fascist as berlusconi not only human, but also a great politician made me not want to take you seriously. now im not able to at all. no of course racism is not bad. you should think germans would have learned from their mistake by now.

Mario is quite OK , and you are not . First , Norway had its portion of fascism too . Second , I think you should apologize before Mario .

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by stupidradical
g-man:

1) they were never given a serious deal either

2) i think the opposite.

3) see 2#

no offense, but im not going to continue this thread forever. threads like these usually go on for too long. and are usually just repeating facts we view differently without getting anywhere.

1) They were offered 95% of the land + compensations for the rest + large parts of Jerusalem. That's the best anyone will ever offer them.
2) How come? The Palestinians are the ones who started using violence and they're the ones who broke the peace talks.
3) If they're incapable of fighting the IDF it's their own problem. Why should innocent civilians die becuse of that? And how is this in any way self defence? All these attacks cause is more attacks.

 

[Tassadar]

Originally posted by G-Man



The relevance of Nazi Germany is that it shows that peace can be achieved through the use of force. There was war, the allies won, and had peace with Germany ever since.

But germany wasnt colonise with a different cultur poeple, neither Japan.


The only solution is give to palestinian a free country as mention in resolution 242, and then if they still attack you, then you can declare a justified war on them. I bet you anything if they got a country and autonomy most palestinian will agree to make peace. Only maybe a few extremist will stil create problem but not the entire palestinian community.

 

[Mario Feldberg]

Originally posted by stupidradical
that you consider a fascist as berlusconi not only human, but also a great politician made me not want to take you seriously.

That you call berlusconi a fascist makes you look pretty dumb.
You think democracy is fascism and quote anarchist terrorists.
There's nothing like a young leftist

 

[stupidradical]

1) look at a prison. 95% of the prison is probably used by the prisoners. what does that have to do with anything? well, the 5% extra israel wanted wasnt a small scrap of land by their border. they wanted strategic lines that would cut off and cripple palestinian economic life and autonomy.

2) israel let the illegal settlers continue. then an attack is not only justified but necessary.

3) "if israel isnt able to fight off the suicidebombers thats their own problem". are you seriously trying to legitimize israeli stealing of land ( a war crime, btw, thats how israel broke the peace treaty again and again ) by "might is right"?

leha: norway had a portion of fascism. very true! but you forgot to mention that it was the fascist state germany who imposed it on us. oh, and berlusconi is for a huge degree of capitalism and statism ( combined = fascism) . its not like its a secret. neither are his connections to the italian mob.

oh, mario. your rolling your eyes at me is very mature. i dont really take offense as it is obvious that i am several times smarter than you ( hell- i even speak my fourth language better than do you speak your - i presume - second! ). so there. *rolls eyes*