It strikes me as odd how many financial leaders have great uniques.

[Monkeyfinger]

Darius
Huayna Capac
Ragnar
Willem
Pacal

That's half of them. (Left out in the cold are Mansa, Wang Kon, Hannibal, and the biritish queens.) A good deal less than half of BtS's 52 leaders have uniques that good. It's like firaxis is trying to give financial compensation it doesn't really need or something.

When I look at my hall of fame it strikes me that this is a big part of "financial addiction"; my high scores are disproportionately represented by financial leaders not just because of the trait, but because of how many of its owners have an excellent UU and/or UB.

Charismatic and Creative > Financial before you factor in UUs and UBs, but after you do...

Organized is the other trait that's just as over the top in terms of uniques. Darius, Zara Yaqob, Julius, Mehmed, Asoka. But that trait blows and needs all the help it can get.

 

[iamnleth]

Why is everyone in love with charismatic? I'm not feeling it. One extra happy face that won't likely be game changing (there are alternate ways into happiness) and cheap promotions that don't have much effect as most wars are (or perhaps should be) fought with a technological advantage.

And why do you consider organized a poor trait? It saves a large amount of gold mid-late game and allows for cheap courthouses (they can be whipped with only one turn of production at a population of 4). That allows you to expand longer, even allowing you to fight consecutive wars at a lower cost.

Although I can agree with the power of the creative trait and your point about financial leaders.

 

[Hackapell]

I don't get half of those left out of your list of excellent UU and UBs.

The redcoat is not the beast it was in vanilla, but it is still quite formidable, especially with Grens being pushed back farther in the tech tree. They have one of the longest lifespans of any UU, since it takes infantry to render them obsolete. But by then, wouldn't you have Assembly Line thanks to financial?
The Stock exchange plays in perfectly with a CE, encouraging you to have high tax revenues and get more bang for your buck.

I won't disagree that with the nerf to Siege in BtS that Hwachas are quite less of a UU. I mean, at least the fast worker lasts the whole game, and you get more when you capture any other workers. But Wang has the Seowon, the dream building for anyone aiming for space, which Korea is especially adapted to.

Ragnar's UU and UB are great, but situational. Obviously, no coastal cities, and the power of both is severely reduced. Similarly, HC's Quechas are only awesome at levels above monarch, as that is when the AI starts with Archery. The Terrace is pretty good though.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Charismatic is 2 happy faces if you build monuments. That's pretty much 2 free population points unless you are swimming in happiness resources early, something you can't count on.

Civic upkeep isn't that huge a deal in Civ4 even if you're playing on Emperor (my difficulty level) and are running say bureaucracy + OR. As for courthouses? Everyone gets them, organized leaders just get them a tiny bit quicker. That's why I don't like organized.

Hackapell, if you're right, my point is only further proven, but I'll argue anyway.

The way the brit queens are set up, they encourage a playstyle wherein if you war with redcoats, they will be used on someone who lacks gunpowder units to give them a good fight, hence, their bonus does nothing. Meanwhile stock exchanges don't show up until the point where your science slider runs high. Though I suppose you could use Liz to build a couple, run a whole bunch of merchant specialists in the cities that have them, and get that science slider all the way to 100.... I'll have to consider that. They do take their sweet time to show up though.

Siege units are for attacking stacks, so melee units won't be assigned to defend against hwachas.

Seowons, like stock exchanges, are hurt by lateness.

Berzerkers get half a free city raider promotion to stack with aggressive bonus, which is more signifigant than you might think. They also never have to give up turns repositioning themselves such that they aren't attacking across a river, which is a great tactical advantage. I wont try to defend the trading post though.

Below monarch the AI expands slowly enough for barbs to actually claim land and found cities. Quechuas rape those barbs.

 

[iamnleth]

I'll agree that civic upkeep isn't something to be worried about, but once you realize all the gold you're saving, there's much more you can do with it.

Scenario: Use it for more research capacity on the slider. With that you work to gain a military tech advantage. Once you have it, you can use the extra gold for upgrades, freely capture cities without crashing your economy, and whip those cheap courthouses quickly in captured cities (c. renaissance era) or use the gold effectively after the war (c. industrial and on) to rush buy with the extra gold through universal suffrage.

While it may not be the best trait, I wouldn't say that it "blows". But I would take financial or creative over organized any day.

 

[MyOtherName]

Civic upkeep isn't that huge a deal in Civ4 even if you're playing on Emperor (my difficulty level) and are running say bureaucracy + OR. As for courthouses? Everyone gets them, organized leaders just get them a tiny bit quicker. That's why I don't like organized.

What if you are doing something that makes the "tiny bit quicker" very relevant? Say... rapidly ReXing, or going on a military rampage?

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

Are we talking UU or UBs? The korean UU might not be fantastic, but the UB is. An extra 10% more research is huge. And it doesn't come late. You can hit education around 800-1000ad even on emperor.

And Carthage + the great lighthouse is ridiculously good. If you can get some overseas trade routes before astronomy, (low sea levels ftw and/or archipelago) you'll tech ridiculously fast.

 

[Shadzy19]

I find the korean UU extremly good , just make a stack of their hwacha's , some go the shock route while the others get CR , couple them with CR swords and a odd spear if they get HA's and there isnt anyone that can kill your army untill they get longbows.

They come at a perfect time aswell , 1 war to take out your close neighbour so you get your 8-12 city's should be more then enough to get a victory.

 

[oyzar]

Seeing as people hit education around 0 AD on deity it probably isn't late but if you hit it that early you are obviously wanting to take advantage of a tech lead to go fight, not build universities everywhere. It is not great but it obviously do something... His uu is insane in warlords. Probably the most nerfed civ in the transition from warlords to vanilla. Mansas UU is quite nuts in some special cases and even if they don't hit it is always decent in mp. Carismatic is pretty good before you hit monarchy(around 2000 BC at the latest). After that it just doesn't do much unless you are heavy fighting through the entire game. Capac's UU is just an AI exploit. Pacal's UU is probably worse than mansa's most of the time and in most games doesn't do much. It is not among the top 5 but it is pretty good on a crowded continent against humans. Willhelm'ws UU is very situational. In the end it is only capac and darius that have truly killer UU's in the financial crowd. The rest are around average..

 

[troytheface]

odd? The game was created for profit in the most hyper capitalistic nation.
I suggest there is an unconscious bias whenever a civ is assigned this trait.
In america if you ever hear "they come from a good family", what they are really saying is "they have money".

 

[futurehermit]

It strikes me as odd that you include the Dutch uu but not the English uu.

Also, given horses, I would take war chariots over most other UUs. I also am a big fan of panzers and fast workers.

 

[madscientist]

Why is everyone in love with charismatic? I'm not feeling it. One extra happy face that won't likely be game changing (there are alternate ways into happiness) and cheap promotions that don't have much effect as most wars are (or perhaps should be) fought with a technological advantage.

And why do you consider organized a poor trait? It saves a large amount of gold mid-late game and allows for cheap courthouses (they can be whipped with only one turn of production at a population of 4). That allows you to expand longer, even allowing you to fight consecutive wars at a lower cost.

Although I can agree with the power of the creative trait and your point about financial leaders.

Not to get off topic, but regarding charismatic...

1) Yes 1 happy, plus 1 happy with a monument are very big early on. It allows you to grow large or whip without regard for stopping regrowth.

2) Fast promotions. A big deal for the war monger, we all know you can get faster promotion like CRIII at 8 XP. What it also does is speeds up producing GGs. Look how overpowered Cyrus is as a war-monger.

3) Promotions of new units. OK, very easy to get a three level promoted units early, Barracks+theocracy/Vassalage+settled GG. Mounted units get the benefit of the stable.

4) Late game: Easy to get level 4 and maybe level 5 units. Barracks+pentagon+theocracy+West point+settled GG = 4 promotions. Add a few more GGs and it's level 5. Nothing beats level 5 build Washington Navy Seals.

5) Naval units: No one discusses it but once you have a drydocks you are immediately producing level 2 war-ships, and they are usually destroyers. Add west-point to that coastal city and you have three promotion units out of the gate.

I view Charismatic as getting that edge with newly built units which generally compete or ar ebetter than other AI veterans. Some AIs can just abuse it like crazy: Melee/gunpowder Boudica units or Churchill Redcoats which can be the most highly promoted units out of the gate (you can actually start them with 7 promotions if you settle GGs in one city).

All that said, a peaceful gate really nerfs charismatic alot (It was essentially useless in my Persians RPC game).

 

[futurehermit]

Yep, if you're not going for domination/conquest with charismatic you're not playing to your strength imho.

 

[madscientist]

As fars as the OP I consider most of those financial leaders to have medium to good UUs at best. I actually think Musa's fit's best with financial as he can build a stronge defense while he tech like crazy.

I think the UB's are more overpowered

HC= Granery with +2 culture turns him into a creative leader
English = Stock Excahnge +15% extra works veyr well with financial
Musa= Mint +10% works with financial
Hannibal= Extra trade route, works with financial
Darius= extra health from a grocer (I think it's health), OK.
Ragnar= UB fits more with his Agressive trait
Willem= Dike is best UB in the game
Mayans= 2 extra happiness per ball court is OK.
Korean= +15% beakers fits with financial

I am missing someone but generally most financial leaders have an overpowering UB which works very well with that trait.

 

[futurehermit]

You're not missing anyone. Those are all the financial leaders.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

I said uniques.

Not unique units.

Uniques.

Where the HELL did you guys get the idea that I wasn't including buildings? Jesus christ. I mean, neither the dutch not the brits have an outstanding UU, but the Dutch do get an awesome building while the brits... don't.

Capac's UU is just an AI exploit.

Bull. The measures one needs to take to stop a quechua rush pre-bronze leave him ripe for a third party to destroy him with a more conventional rush. Though it is true that the current AI wouldn't exploit this, we're talking about a theoretical AI smart enough to do any counter-designing in the first place, aren't we?

 

[futurehermit]

No need to get so worked up. It's easy to misunderstand on forums/email. I was simply commenting on you not including the English in your first list and was basing my comment on the strength of the UU since the English UB isn't super-duper outstanding.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

I just figure that BECAUSE I'm putting the dutch over the english, it should speak for itself that I'm including buildings in the comparison, since that's where the dutch really stand out and pretty much everyone knows that. To bring up the buildings feels patronizing, as if you think I'm some moron that can't see how good Dikes are.

 

[futurehermit]

I wasn't saying you are a moron at all. Quite the contrary. I was speaking not to the weakness of Dutch, but the strength of the English UU.

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

Seeing as people hit education around 0 AD on deity it probably isn't late but if you hit it that early you are obviously wanting to take advantage of a tech lead to go fight, not build universities everywhere.

Do you have a link of how that's done? Obviously bulbing a ton of GS, but I can't see that being possible without a severely doctored start. World builder ftw, with marble and gold and tons of food in the bfc.