Returning Civ Leaders-Elimination Thread

[Guandao]

Hammurabi (32+1)=33 He needs to return as the Babylonian leader
Mansa Musa (10-3)=7 2nd place is a nice spot for Musa

 

[Kimiimaro]

Ah, the final two! Let's see how long we can drag this)
Hammurabi 27 + 1 = 28 - I want Hammurabi to win.
Mansa Musa 25 - 3 = 22 - I want Hammurabi to win.

Why Hammurabi? A Civ classic, a great ruler, maybe Mansa Musa is more unique, but Hammurabi should have more depth to him.

Hammurabi 31 + 1 = 32
Mansa Musa 13 - 3 = 10

Hammurabi is better.

Do you know you can vote only once per 24 hours?

 

[IgorS]

Do you know you can vote only once per 24 hours?

I vote every day at about the same time between 23:00 and 01:00, depends on when I have the time.

 

[God of Kings]

I vote every day at about the same time between 23:00 and 01:00, depends on when I have the time.

Say so when you vote.

 

[Kimiimaro]

I didn't include second IgorS' vote, because he posted twice in 24 hours.

Hammurabi 32+1=33 - The greatest Babylonian king and also creator to one of the first code of laws in history.
Mansa Musa 10-3=7 - Mansa Musa can't compare to Hammurabi in terms of greatness.

 

[Siptah]

Hammurabi 30 (33-3) What's so great about him? The code of laws? There have been similar things before. He made Babylon great? His father did and he continued to do so - and after his death Babylon declined again very soon. I think the whole civ is a bit overrated. It really isn't on par with Sumer, Akkad or the Assyrians. A Kassite ruler is of course not really an option for Babylon. So why not a Neo-Babylonian ruler? But I think a Sumerian Renaissance ruler (that will hopefully come at some day) and the necessary inclusion of Assyria as one of the mightiest empires in antiquity make the whole civ redundant and so is Hammurabi in that case. I'm really surprised that he is winning here.
Mansa Musa 8 (7+1) Not that it will help him.

 

[Kimiimaro]

@Siptah, on the other way, who would notice Mansa Musa if Mali didn't have any gold mines?

 

[IgorS]

I didn't include second IgorS' vote, because he posted twice in 24 hours.

So I posted an hour earlier. This is not a reason to ignore my vote. It is not Like I posted two times in a row. I actually waited an entire day before posting again. This is what posting once in 24 hours means.

The score now is:
Hammurabi 31
Mansa Musa 6

And I will not vote again in this thread, if this is what you want.

 

[Kimiimaro]

So I posted an hour earlier. This is not a reason to ignore my vote. It is not Like I posted two times in a row. I actually waited an entire day before posting again. This is what posting once in 24 hours means.

The score now is:
Hammurabi 31
Mansa Musa 6

And I will not vote again in this thread, if this is what you want.

IgorS, Yesterday at 12:22 AM
IgorS, Yesterday at 10:09 PM

There were only 10 hours between your posts, that's why I didn't include your vote.

And I didn't say you should stop posting. Actually, you can vote now, it's 29 hours from you last valid post

 

[Siptah]

IgorS, Yesterday at 12:22 AM
IgorS, Yesterday at 10:09 PM

There were only 10 hours between your posts, that's why I didn't include your vote.

And I didn't say you should stop posting. Actually, you can vote now, it's 29 hours from you last valid post

The time difference between 12:22 AM (= 00:22) and 10:09 PM (= 22:09) is more than 10 hours.

@Siptah, on the other way, who would notice Mansa Musa if Mali didn't have any gold mines?

Me. He's not just famous for being immensely rich. And he did spend money for well known public projects, not just for his famous pilgrimage. And was a successful conqueror as well. And Mali has more potential for a unique civ (focussed on trade and gold). And Hammurabi is not a bad choice as well- but I think he and especially the Babylonian Empire are overrated and there is no 'need' to include him or the civ, especially with Sumer already there and the Assyria as a potential and much more interesting addition.

 

[Kimiimaro]

The time difference between 12:22 AM (= 00:22) and 10:09 PM (= 22:09) is more than 10 hours.

Oh. I was confused with that AM and PM thing. I thought that 12:22 AM is 12:22, not 00:22. I'm sorry, @IgorS!

Me. He's not just famous for being immensely rich. And he did spend money for well known public projects, not just for his famous pilgrimage. And was a successful conqueror as well. And Mali has more potential for a unique civ (focussed on trade and gold). And Hammurabi is not a bad choice as well- but I think he and especially the Babylonian Empire are overrated and there is no 'need' to include him or the civ, especially with Sumer already there and the Assyria as a potential and much more interesting addition.

Which still means that he wouldn't be so famous if he didn't own any gold mines to fund his projects.

 

[Siptah]

Which still means that he wouldn't be so famous if he didn't own any gold mines to fund his projects.

Sure. But rulers that didn't inherit land/resources or power and made an empire from scratch are very rare. If I look at the list that we have here, not even the famous founders of Empires like Charlemagne or Osman started from scratch. Only Cesar did - but then he did a coup in one of the mightiest states and didn't build up an empire.

 

[IgorS]

Oh. I was confused with that AM and PM thing. I thought that 12:22 AM is 12:22, not 00:22. I'm sorry, @IgorS!

Yeah, this is why I was so confused as to why you made such a big deal out of this. 00:00 is 12 AM, 12:00 is 12 PM.

 

[Morningcalm]

On the Mansa Musa and gold mines thing, perhaps Elizabeth I wouldn't be so famous with her English captains, or Genghis without his loyal keshig (who went on to become excellent generals), etc etc. All leaders have resources and use them either to good or bad. In Mansa Musa's case, he used his gold mines for a good purpose and became legendary.

 

[Kimiimaro]

On the Mansa Musa and gold mines thing, perhaps Elizabeth I wouldn't be so famous with her English captains, or Genghis without his loyal keshig (who went on to become excellent generals), etc etc. All leaders have resources and use them either to good or bad. In Mansa Musa's case, he used his gold mines for a good purpose and became legendary.

I don't think this is the best comparsion. Mali was rich thanks to gold mines even before Mansa Musa and he only used it for his great projects. On the other way, Elizabeth I came up with the idea of giving pirates immunity if they attacked Spanish gold transports and Genghis Khan came up with his vision of unifying the Mongolian tribes and conquering the world. Mansa Musa used something that was well known and used already, Elizabeth and Genghis Khan came up with brilliant ideas that made their empires great.

 

[Morningcalm]

Mansa Musa *did* use his gold in a unique way--he donated so much and so generously that Mali became a valuable trading destination for Europe and known thereby throughout Europe. And he used his army to conquer successfully as well. So he's no slouch in the military department re: Elizabeth or Genghis. And his subsidizing of architectural innovation in the Mali Empire *was* brilliant and *did* make his empire great. He created the largest library in Africa short of Alexandria, and attracted Muslim scholarship the world over to Mali.

 

[Manifold]

IgorS, Yesterday at 12:22 AM
IgorS, Yesterday at 10:09 PM

There were only 10 hours between your posts, that's why I didn't include your vote.

And I didn't say you should stop posting. Actually, you can vote now, it's 29 hours from you last valid post

Igor modded the time with a new LH

Hammurabi 28 (31-3) Oh no, I gave him all this points against Louis XIV
Mansa Musa 7 (6+1) he would pay me for my vote

 

[God of Kings]

Mansa Musa *did* use his gold in a unique way--he donated so much and so generously that Mali became a valuable trading destination for Europe and known thereby throughout Europe. And he used his army to conquer successfully as well. So he's no slouch in the military department re: Elizabeth or Genghis. And his subsidizing of architectural innovation in the Mali Empire *was* brilliant and *did* make his empire great. He created the largest library in Africa short of Alexandria, and attracted Muslim scholarship the world over to Mali.

Musa also made Timbuktu a synonym for "unspecified faraway place" in various European languages, including English.

 

[IgorS]

Musa also made Timbuktu a synonym for "unspecified faraway place" in various European languages, including English.

You keep mentioning this, but I don't understand if this is a good thing or a bad thing...

 

[Manifold]

You keep mentioning this, but I don't understand if this is a good thing or a bad thing...

good association unlike Wallachia I guess