It's no use- I can't do it. Epic failure at CivIV

[joe6778]

I've been trying to win at Noble for a long time. I've won about 50% but to me this game is extremely difficult even after hours and hours of watching walkthroughs, posting shadow games, and reading the forums. I'm already pretty well-known around here as a whiner, but I just don't get how to win this game consistently, and I don't think I'll ever move up in difficulty. I envy you players who win this game so easily.

I don't mind a challenge, but Noble for me is still a chore and very frustrating. I need a college course to grasp the strategy.

This last game did it for me: I had a chariot rush early on and wiped out two civs. I was friendly with Shaka and I was in first place. Things were moving along nicely until Shaka and his vassal the Khymer AND Togo DOWed me. Not much I could do but try to hold them off. I couldn't take the pounding and watching all my units get decimated, so I quit.

Anyway, I know I've gotten some good advice from a lot of folks here, but I just can't grasp this game. I'm either moving down to Warlord, or quitting (again) and going back to boardgaming. This is insane. I hate losing and I hate being frustrated. I'm 59 years old. I should be playing golf or something.

Anybody else feel as I do? Anybody else think this game is crazy difficult?

Thanks for hearing me out.

 

[joe6778]

Please move to the Civ IV forum

 

[knight508]

I think with enough time/practice you'll be able to comfortably beat Emperor. How do I know? Because I went from Noble to Emperor and I'm nothing special. Just another average Joe that plays for a few hours (okay maybe more than a few) every now and then. What really helped was this thread I created:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=476752

And watching this channel:
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgT_HmP4nlz5wECKOkIlj9Q

I definitely understand the frustration though as you want to win, but don't want a cakewalk either. I can definitely recall having a few choice words at certain times of the game...

 

[lymond]

Poor Joe has been kickin' this game around for a while though

Hey! Golf ain't a bad option...I enjoy it myself

Anyway, Joe, I'll be honest though. I lost a little bit of patience trying to help you because I felt you were not patient enough to really take in the advice we were giving you and make the shadow games work for you. There's a lot of two way communication that needs to occur as well. We need to know what is going through your mind at a given point, as opposed to just posting up a save. Furthermore, you play a short turnset or two and then bullrush through like 100 turns or so and wonder why everything went wrong during that time.

I was hoping something would eventually click with you, especially about the early game. As I've harped on many times, getting off to a good start is so important. Just grasping a few key points like worker management, city specializiation, the importance of food and settling near resources can really change your game. However, I feel you still aren't getting some of these points.

As for warfare, I honestly have never seen a real demonstration of your war efforts or your grasp of diplomacy. There's a lot we can help you with in that regard. Diplomacy takes time really for anyone to master, but on Noble you should not have to worry about it much if you take care of the basics. Warfare on the other hand is quite tactical. Just trying to slam against cities with a stack of melee units or whatnot can be disastrous, except for very early rushes. (Heck..on Noble...you can often capture 1 or 2 caps out the gate with warriors on certain maps)

The fact that Shaka has so many vassals and dow'd you on Noble is a concern itself. Never really should get to that point. You should be blowing these guys away in tech and either vassalizing guys like Shaka or taking him out early.

Anyway, this game can be very rewarding if you give the learning process some real attention. I'm at a loss what to tell you beyond that. Much of it has to come from you now. what do you really want....

 

[CivNoobie]

my advice is....don't just try to rush everything.

I bet you didn't build cottages or work them and you did not specialize cities, instead you just tried to make units with them.

what were your tech path??? did you research techs according to a plan or did you just researched randomly after the ancient era?

 

[Seraiel]

From what you say and from what I hear here, I'm quite sure that the turns between the rush and Shaka + Vassal attacking you were played really fast, really poor, and that you lack the knowledge over some of the most basic dynamics there are in CIV, because the time from a Chariot-rush to someone having a Vassal (requiring at least Feudalism, which is a huge tech thats million miles away from Chariots) is extremely long, and that you're lacking knowledge over a really basic mechanic I guess from my own history, where Prince was the first lvl I lost, anyhow, I also had played CIV 1 + 2 10y earlier so at least knew what the game was about.

I couldn't stand losing Prince, came to these forums, and read something about "chopping trees" . Thought "WTH" and tried that in my next game. Guess what, I instantly won Prince, next Emperor und the step taking longer than 1 game from that, was beating Deity, which was so difficult, that I needed months for it and only achieved my first victories on Marathon with Huayna Capac and luck.

Maybe this'll give you new motivation to try harder. Regarding Gold I can only say, that I quit after achieving a handicap of 16 after not even 2 years with my best round having been +4 over par in the clubs championship, and that club was even regarded as a difficult one.

One could say that Deity and Golf are somehow "on par" , so the decision you have to make is: Do you want to sit in front of your computer, think and communicate, or do you want to pay XYZ $ per year to spend a great time in the park.

I think there is no both in this case, because either one is too difficult on its own and with doing both half, you'd only get double frustrated.

Seraiel

 

[Daraexus]

Before rushing and warring and winning, you should start from the beggining. I, myself, I started from the lowest level, and I only increase the difficulty when I win several games with different conditions.

I have read about specialization, cottage economy, warmongering, and I try to apply those concepts and create my own style.

Currently, I'm at noble. I don't win every game, but I just started to get tech leads, to win wars easily and when I feel ready I'll move towards Prince. Hell, I even won a cultural victory without using the Culture Slider once!!! I forced myself to use specialists, micromanaging and the special traits of my leader (Roosevelt). I started on Pangeas, now I feel confident to play on fractals. I have yet still to win a domination/conquest victory via naval warfare.

The point is, do not surrender, try to play several games, if you think you lost the game, you've made to many mistakes, you're not happy about the outcomes, there's no shame on retreat. There's no shame on try to attack the game from an old savepoint just to correct your own mistakes (believe me, it teaches you A LOT).

I'm so motivated to keep trying and improving, that I'd like to do a LP or a leaders challenge and post here just for fun.

So, pal, if you want to grab the iron 2 and hit that little white ball, go ahead, but if you DO believe you're gonna get also fun from Civilization, don't feel bad, try again and try to beat the game, always remembering that you want to have fun, and there's even fun on the defeat.

(Heck, trying to do a cuirassiers rush for second time when your enemy has grenadiers... it's a baaaad idea, and a funny anecdote though...)

 

[Packers5280]

A big thing that helped me take off from Noble is war can be your best friend. I tried to peaceful expand at Noble, and I had a rough win percentage as you. The moment I started warring early, say as JC using praet stomp, I started to win easily. Then attention to detail helped me advance even further.

I would advise you to take a look at Sisiutil's All Leader Challenge (ALC). He started at prince and advanced until Immortal. Reading those gave me insight in how to further my game.

 

[Kjotleik]

I've been trying to win at Noble for a long time. I've won about 50% but to me this game is extremely difficult even after hours and hours of watching walkthroughs, posting shadow games, and reading the forums. I'm already pretty well-known around here as a whiner, but I just don't get how to win this game consistently, and I don't think I'll ever move up in difficulty. I envy you players who win this game so easily.

I don't mind a challenge, but Noble for me is still a chore and very frustrating. I need a college course to grasp the strategy.

Maybe a months break would do you good, then? But come back and try to play it again when the inspiration strikes you....(nobody should play a game if it's no fun...).

One piece of advice I can give is this: YOU may think Shaka is friendly, but he is one of the AI's you can count on attacking you. I'll say again if you didn't get it: Shaka WILL attack you. It just takes a few turns of lower attitude, and he's all about plotting war against you...that bastard.

By the way: Being first in score midway through the game is not such a good position to be in if you struggle to win at that particular level. If you're level with the AI's (or a little behind) in technology and level on land-area and number of cities - you should be behind in population. Too much population means you've probably not whipped enough population into hammers...

Also, wonders of the world counts towards score, and should be avoided until you are confident you can win at your present level. Instead focus on NEEDED infrastructure and a decent military. Of course, you can build ONE wonder if it will help you on your way towards your chosen victory condition (and you have the resource that gives a bonus towards its construction).

The choice of mapscript is also important. It is easier to win on Pangaea than on Archipelago, for instance. And playing Marathon speed will make your units three times faster (they can move three times in the same amount of time (in percent) that they can move one time on Normal speed).

Well, that's all for now, I guess. Happy hole-in-one, and welcome back to CivIV when you feel it's fun again...



Yours Sincerely

Kjotleik of Norway

 

[PIC16F84A]

I've been trying to win at Noble for a long time. I've won about 50% but to me this game is extremely difficult even after hours and hours of watching walkthroughs, posting shadow games, and reading the forums. I'm already pretty well-known around here as a whiner, but I just don't get how to win this game consistently, and I don't think I'll ever move up in difficulty. I envy you players who win this game so easily.

I don't mind a challenge, but Noble for me is still a chore and very frustrating. I need a college course to grasp the strategy.

This last game did it for me: I had a chariot rush early on and wiped out two civs. I was friendly with Shaka and I was in first place. Things were moving along nicely until Shaka and his vassal the Khymer AND Togo DOWed me. Not much I could do but try to hold them off. I couldn't take the pounding and watching all my units get decimated, so I quit.

Anyway, I know I've gotten some good advice from a lot of folks here, but I just can't grasp this game. I'm either moving down to Warlord, or quitting (again) and going back to boardgaming. This is insane. I hate losing and I hate being frustrated. I'm 59 years old. I should be playing golf or something.

Anybody else feel as I do? Anybody else think this game is crazy difficult?

Thanks for hearing me out.

Hello buddy i've been in the same situation. First i started playing in settler move to chieftain after a couple of wins then jump to noble without winning a single game at warlord, the reason? Well i said to my self that if i cant win at warlord then if i move up i may lose 100% of the time first but then i can improve my game With the help of most of the guys here specially master Seraiel and his city specialization advices and much more i improve my game got my first Noble win eventhough it is a diplo win then as of now i won by domination by 60% of the time at Noble

I'm no Deity player, but i have a question for you do you tend to wipe out all of the AI's civ city when you engage in a war? If yes i think you should learn how to capitulate AI civs in most of my games i've won by domination with 4-5 capitulated civs. Also with these setup i manage to win by the 1800s previously i was winning at 1900 but as Lymond said to me once the games are won in the BC's now after a couple wins in noble i'm starting to practice how to win early. And most of all learn to counter the units of your enemy. And one thing that i've discovered and notice is that
when engaging in a war Siege units are so important Lots of siege units

Also i notice that before going to war you should fix your economy and specializing a city is important. Since units will cost maintenance for me fixing my economy first is a must then of course while i fix my economy i make sure that i have enough military units so that the AI will not tend to bully me or much worse declare war on me

Yes Civ4 is difficult with all the micro managing all the stuff that you will consider and so on and so on. But what makes Civ 4 an attracting and different game from the rest of the other games in the market is that most of them are repetitive. For me Civ 4 has no limits i mean you can play and play for hours but as you play a new game it is so completely different from the last one Since you will make several decisions that will lead to other paths or events.

The secret will be to enjoy your game even if you are losing most of the time just enjoy the game heck i even lose more than winning Enjoy your day Sir dont lose hope. Civ 4 is so much entertaining and challenging even if you play on different levels

Regards

PIC16F84A the Warlord Guy XD

 

[joe6778]

Thanks everyone for the advice.

Are there any videos out there that show how a player handles being attacked by multiple civs at the same time? The walkthroughs I've watched don't seem to include that.

I'd like to see how a player handles getting attacked while being slightly behind in military techs and/or being attacked by multiple stacks of doom.

Lymond, I'm really trying to improve my game and I am paying attention, but the learning curve for Civ IV is very steep. It's not a game you play leisurely to pass the time. Noble difficulty for a player like me, who can't spend hours upon hours playing and learning all the nuances, is a chore.

For instance, I play Panzer Corps on Colonel (normal) difficulty, and I at least think I have a shot at winning the campaign.

 

[CivNoobie]

I think one of the problems that many new players have with civ is that they are playin it like AoE series.


What I mean is that this is a turn based strategy game, speed is not one of the factors that determine how good of a player you are.

 

[lymond]

Are there any videos out there that show how a player handles being attacked by multiple civs at the same time? The walkthroughs I've watched don't seem to include that.

The problem here, Joe, is you are not focusing on the real issues. Learning how to handle multiple DOWs is far far far away from being your problem or solution. Multiple DOWs is more of a symptom. Falling behind in tech or military techs is a symptom. The questions you need to ask or the issues you need to focus on far precede these symptoms.

I assure you if you focus on the right things and get off to better starts with better empires, you will encounter these symptoms much less, if at all, especially on Noble.

edit: It's like putting bandaids on injuries, that should have been prevented in the first place.

 

[PIC16F84A]

You can weaken a stack by using some Siege units that way even if they will attack a city they will be easily countered by the defenders

 

[sampsa]

Lymond, I'm really trying to improve my game and I am paying attention, but the learning curve for Civ IV is very steep. It's not a game you play leisurely to pass the time. Noble difficulty for a player like me, who can't spend hours upon hours playing and learning all the nuances, is a chore.

I agree with the underlined part 100%. For me, the breakthrough was when I became genuinely interested in various game mechanics (for example, how does a granary work? why is whipping/writing/currency so good? how do trade routes work?) and played the BC-years of the same map over and over again until I realized what was beneficial and what was not. Judging from lymond's post, you like to play, but you don't like to analyze. Take it slow and ponder your every move. If all this feels extremely boring to you, this is perhaps not the game for you.

 

[NetGear]

Yeah I think the learning curve is steep if you're trying to absorb all the advice from the veterans now and try to implement them all at the same time. But all that is really unnecessary at noble level so play how you want. You have alot of wiggle room to make mistake anyway believe it or not. You just need to get the basics down at this point.

As for multiple dow, most ppl prevent that from occuring in the first place by managing relations and abusing game mechanics such as forced peace treaty when certain diplomatic actions are taken. Still, there should be some LPs of players being multi dowed and survive somewhere.

 

[Seraiel]

Getting DoWed by 3 empires means that your cities are too large and therefor juicy for the AI. I say this every week, but 1 point of population costs 1 gold, and grassland is the only land that's effective at most, if not even only special resources are worth working.

Keep your cities small via the whip, produce units and buildings that help you, and you won't even get attacked, as long as you don't screw up diplomatic relations completely.

And listen to lymond, what he says is right. CIV is no game that you can play without mastering the basics, I also already told you that you're lacking something very basic. It's like if you intended to play Golf but never had a lesson or were on the driving range. I tried that, I think my first drive was 5m long. After various lessons from Pro's and after a lot of hard work, I managed to hit over 150m with 7th Iron and about 220m with 1st Iron and that even precisely, no compare that to the 5m I hit at first, and you know where you stand and what you have to do if you want to find the same in CIV.

It doesn't matter if Panzer Nub game or whatever tells you that you're playing on normal, difference between that game and CIV is that CIV is better and that it can fascinate someone for years because there at least are enough difficulty levels! Maybe you'll find it easier to believe, when I tell you that I actually spent 2 weeks of reading the War Academy and this Forum before I even tried playing on higher difficulties, and with 2 weeks, I meen 2 RL-weeks, and I don't count sleep.

 

[joe6778]

The problem here, Joe, is you are not focusing on the real issues. Learning how to handle multiple DOWs is far far far away from being your problem or solution. Multiple DOWs is more of a symptom. Falling behind in tech or military techs is a symptom. The questions you need to ask or the issues you need to focus on far precede these symptoms.

I assure you if you focus on the right things and get off to better starts with better empires, you will encounter these symptoms much less, if at all, especially on Noble.

edit: It's like putting bandaids on injuries, that should have been prevented in the first place.

I don't think you're really being fair. You can criticize my game play, my failure to grasp certain aspects of strategy, and my whining, but the fact is I've been trying damned hard to learn what I need to move up in difficulty. I did play a shadow game where I posted every ten turns. I started one recently, but you never commented on it.

I have never in my life devoted so much time and effort in order to play a game well (except maybe chess) and still continue to flounder. There are so many things I'm not even aware of when it comes to the mechanics/strategies of this game, but I have been making a deliberate effort to learn; hours and hours of game play until my head hurts.

For instance, in my latest game as Alexander, I was able to wipe out two civs very early with chariot rushes. The Dutch were eliminated by the Aztecs and they later vassaled the Khymer. Now I'm up against Japan, and Aztecs/Khymer. I have been constantly building up my military units and trying to get a tech advantage, but I'm still a little behind. If I attack Japan, the Aztecs will attack me or vice versa. If I concentrate on building my techs/civilization, I'm going to get attacked.

Are you saying I'm losing this particular game because I haven't grasped the basics? If I tech for a stronger military, I fall behind on the other techs. If I try to out-tech them on other things, I way behind militarily and get attacked.

Just when I think I'm starting to get it, stuff like this happens.

Anyway, you can look down on us mortals, but I believe the average gamer would never make the effort that it takes to excel at this game on the higher difficulty. You need a freakin' college course to play this game well above Warlord.

 

[CivNoobie]

I don't think you're really being fair. You can criticize my game play, my failure to grasp certain aspects of strategy, and my whining, but the fact is I've been trying damned hard to learn what I need to move up in difficulty. I did play a shadow game where I posted every ten turns. I started one recently, but you never commented on it.

I have never in my life devoted so much time and effort in order to play a game well (except maybe chess) and still continue to flounder. There are so many things I'm not even aware of when it comes to the mechanics/strategies of this game, but I have been making a deliberate effort to learn; hours and hours of game play until my head hurts.

For instance, in my latest game as Alexander, I was able to wipe out two civs very early with chariot rushes. The Dutch were eliminated by the Aztecs and they later vassaled the Khymer. Now I'm up against Japan, and Aztecs/Khymer. I have been constantly building up my military units and trying to get a tech advantage, but I'm still a little behind. If I attack Japan, the Aztecs will attack me or vice versa. If I concentrate on building my techs/civilization, I'm going to get attacked.

Are you saying I'm losing this particular game because I haven't grasped the basics? If I tech for a stronger military, I fall behind on the other techs. If I try to out-tech them on other things, I way behind militarily and get attacked.

Just when I think I'm starting to get it, stuff like this happens.

Anyway, you can look down on us mortals, but I believe the average gamer would never make the effort that it takes to excel at this game on the higher difficulty. You need a freakin' college course to play this game well above Warlord.

can you post the game at least?

 

[Seraiel]

You are lacking something very basic. You either don't chop, or you don't build Cottages, or you don't work the last, or you're automizing your workers, or you're using the city-govenor, or something really really basic, something really important and something really bad.

One maybe needs a college course to master IMM, one definately has to make a great effort to conquer Deity, but Noble can be won with Warriors or Axes at most.

How about if you watched less videos and maybe read a Writeup of a Deity game or two? Or what about all those Noble-Club-challenges and all the various games that are played, how you just downloaded the saves, read what they wrote, and noticed the differences to your game?

Seriously, sry if this is hard, but I'll say it again. Noble is very very easy, and you don't win on it, because you're lacking something very very basic. Post 3 saves from 2000 BC, 1000 BC and 1 AD, and I'll tell you what it is.

Seraiel