Jannisary, Musketeer or Oromo Warrior?

[reddishrecue]

Which gunpowder musketman would you prefer? Jannisary, Musketeer or Oromo Warrior?

 

[The_Reckoning]

Oromos for the sweet free promos.

Draft a ton of them while saving up some gold and upgrade them to Riflemen when you tech it.

If playing unrestricted Boudica can make for some silly number of easy promos.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I like the Jannisary; very well rounded unit that can support cannon/musket warfare because it can fight well against medieval units and defend captured cities. Regular muskets tend to have trouble against knights, and the oromo's first strike does nothing against them. Oromo of course upgrades the best. Musketeers aren't that great but at least they can easily keep up with a mounted SOD and clear out pikes

 

[lymond]

Drill IV Oromos, which is very easy to get out the gate, get a Mounted bonus, plus Drill II gives instant access to Formation among other things. So at minimum they are at least at par with Jans. However, Oromos keep their bonus so going for mass Drill IV units is awesome. Way better than the other 2 musket UUs and it's really not even close. Jans are ok if you can get them soon enough, but Oromos are pretty darn strong on high levels.

 

[Akbarthegreat]

Oromos FTW!!!!!
Although they suck against horses.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Tough call, for a change. They all carry potentially useful bonuses. I think it even depends between SP and MP...

None of the musket UU are world beaters but each has a potential that is usable over the base unit in some significant way. 2 move on a unit that ignores walls is scary esp in MP, and doubly so because you can draft it. Jans can wreck pretty much anybody who is trailing in tech and don't have a hard counter for a long time...but do nothing special against opposing muskets so parity era opposition has the same siege + slaughter available as always limiting your ability to attack with jans. Oromos progress via upgrades the best and are pretty solid all around but carry a gaping weakness to FS immunity. All of these are usable but the fact that their bonus comes on musket makes them a bit flawed and keeps them out of the top tier, forever mired in "above average" grounds.

 

[strijder20]

Drill IV Oromos, which is very easy to get out the gate, get a Mounted bonus, plus Drill II gives instant access to Formation among other things. So at minimum they are at least at par with Jans. However, Oromos keep their bonus so going for mass Drill IV units is awesome. Way better than the other 2 musket UUs and it's really not even close. Jans are ok if you can get them soon enough, but Oromos are pretty darn strong on high levels.

They are still pretty weak against mounted, no matter what you say...
If you give them Drill 4 and formation, that will consume 3 promotions and give a 35% bonus against mounted. But a knight could get combat 3 with the same amount of promotions and still win.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

They are still pretty weak against mounted, no matter what you say...
If you give them Drill 4 and formation, that will consume 3 promotions and give a 35% bonus against mounted. But a knight could get combat 3 with the same amount of promotions and still win.

Once they reach gunpowder, knights can take combat 1 and pinch and win too (15% of 9 isn't enough to bring them to 11, and they get no FS vs knights). Actually, that's not an insignificant problem even for jans who would need to reach 10 xp to actually beat pinch knights easily (defending combat II jan vs pinch knight would have 20% bonus and reach 10.8 str...not quite enough to beat a knight's 11 on flatlands after it uses pinch to nullify some of the defensive bonuses).

 

[lymond]

They are still pretty weak against mounted, no matter what you say...
If you give them Drill 4 and formation, that will consume 3 promotions and give a 35% bonus against mounted. But a knight could get combat 3 with the same amount of promotions and still win.

Well, the comparison is to the Jan, and even without Formation the difference is very marginal in terms of Knights. Knights are not much more powerful than the standard Musket, especially considering defensive bonuses. Bottom line, Muskets are generally ignored as a brief period of warfare on higher levels. Oromos are actually somewhate effective at par, 2 Drills provide access to a variety of promos out the gate, but for me the real power of Oromos is forward thinking. They are the only musket with promos that carry forward with upgrade, and that bonus is powerful. (as far as I know it is the only UU with 2 innate upgradeable bonuses - thinking off the top of my head)

 

[strijder20]

Well, the comparison is to the Jan, and even without Formation the difference is very marginal in terms of Knights. Knights are not much more powerful than the standard Musket, especially considering defensive bonuses. Bottom line, Muskets are generally ignored as a brief period of warfare on higher levels. Oromos are actually somewhate effective at par, 2 Drills provide access to a variety of promos out the gate, but for me the real power of Oromos is forward thinking. They are the only musket with promos that carry forward with upgrade, and that bonus is powerful. (as far as I know it is the only UU with 2 innate upgradeable bonuses - thinking off the top of my head)

Yep, that's great. I was only commenting about their strength vs mounted though, as they have my general preference.
About those innate promotions : the Quechuas have combat 1, and Numidians start with flanking, but there is no unmodded unit which can be upgraded which starts with two bonuses.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

The janissary gets slighter advantageous odds vs. an LB once cultural defenses have been removed, while the oromo doesn't (assuming combat 1 for the musket and CG 1 for the LB)

And I think the janissary gets better odds in general pre-gunpowder.

But generally, you bring along a lot of seige so the fullstrength odds aren't that important.

I guess I'd say oromo for higher levels and janissary for mid levels.

Musketeer is 3rd.

 

[Dr.Null]

Oromo + Cannon is a world-conquest favorite of mine. Drill 4 at 5 xp? Yes please. The free Drill also allows access to Medic, so Oromos help build a super-medic (Wood 3 + Medic 1, or Medic 3 with an attached GG).

Musketeers + Cuirs might be interesting, but I don't have many problems with just plain mass Cuirs...

Jans are great if you're the first to Gunpowder, but too often I'm not. Oromo stand up to Grenadiers better, and promote into D4 Rifles -> D4 Infantry very nicely.

What's the optimal bee-line to Gunpowder, anyway? I tend to get it after Education.

 

[strijder20]

Oromo + Cannon is a world-conquest favorite of mine. Drill 4 at 5 xp? Yes please. The free Drill also allows access to Medic, so Oromos help build a super-medic (Wood 3 + Medic 1, or Medic 3 with an attached GG).

Musketeers + Cuirs might be interesting, but I don't have many problems with just plain mass Cuirs...

Jans are great if you're the first to Gunpowder, but too often I'm not. Oromo stand up to Grenadiers better, and promote into D4 Rifles -> D4 Infantry very nicely.

What's the optimal bee-line to Gunpowder, anyway? I tend to get it after Education.

No idea, but Guilds opens up Gunpowder too. The cost of Education and guilds (+ prerequisites) are about the same, so I guess Education is the way to go, as you can bulb with scientists.
However, if you go the Guilds path, you will tech Machinery, which leads to Engineering. You could go for Trebs + Oromos while teching steel easier than when you go down the Education line. At the other hand, you won't have any chance to win Liberalism anymore on higher levels.
Tough.

 

[elohssa]

Janissaries are very useful against longbows, oromos do not cut it against longbows or knights (which the AI loves to spam). If you are to compare then in terms of city-taking ability then a combat 1 + cover Janissary does much better then a drill IV oromo. And I like UUs that take cities.

 

[Jasonsligh]

Janissaries are very useful against longbows, oromos do not cut it against longbows or knights (which the AI loves to spam). If you are to compare then in terms of city-taking ability then a combat 1 + cover Janissary does much better then a drill IV oromo. And I like UUs that take cities.

If I might add...Janissaries also defend those new cities better than Oromos or Musketeers. Knights could easily be the stronger unit in the AI's counter attack. First strikes/collateral damage and movement bonuses are not as helpful as the +25% vs mounted/archer/melee are in that situation.

Musketeers may be better suited for a quick fight in that short "war before rifles" window and for meeting the AI's counter attack a few tiles from your newly taken city. I've never used them offensively and I usually let the counter attack come to me.

Oromos are shiny because of their value later in the game as upgraded units. Most people think off UUs in terms of "what can help me now" so I can see how they get the nod over Jans in that situation.

 

[ajsciri4]

I just played my first game as the Ottomans, and I can't say I was very impressed with the Janissary.

Anyway, the "musketman" unit doesn't late long. Its use goes by almost too fast because trading for rifling (which the AI tends to prioritize) is easy.

 

[strijder20]

I just played my first game as the Ottomans, and I can't say I was very impressed with the Janissary.

Anyway, the "musketman" unit doesn't late long. Its use goes by almost too fast because trading for rifling (which the AI tends to prioritize) is easy.

Double blasphemy! You don't trade for rifling, you tech it first and kill everyone on the world with cavs! On top of that, I've seen some AIs getting Assembly Line before Rifling. Hannibal was surprised when my Rifles killed his muskets and burned down his factories.

You're right about the musket not being long-lived, though. Rifling is just too close.

 

[King Pluto]

I wouldn't argue that Musketeers are third in the pecking order, but I just finished a game as Nappy. The fact that Musketeers could keep up with my mounted stacks to garrison the newly captured cities was definitely a delightful bonus.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I wouldn't argue that Musketeers are third in the pecking order, but I just finished a game as Nappy. The fact that Musketeers could keep up with my mounted stacks to garrison the newly captured cities was definitely a delightful bonus.

I would put them higher in MP, possibly even top musket UU. 2 moves matter a lot when players can't afford 5+ units in all cities + an attack stack.

 

[GGracchus]

I vote Oromo as the best for the extra first strikes(at least in SP). I don't like fighting with muskets, but at least they will upgrade into rifles with drill 1+2 and this is helpful for rifle+cannon wars while you tech rifling and can build muskets.