Japan - Hojo Tokimune Thread

[KrikkitTwo]

I mean, I dunno...whereas Brazil's bonus is a bit more vague (only stating Rainforests giving +1 adjacency to Campus, Commerical Hubs, etc.), Japan's explicitly states that there is an additional standard adjacency bonus. Either Firaxis must have forgotten what a standard adjacency bonus is (and I really don't think they have), or they fully intend for the wording of the UA's text to be completely 100% true. That, or it could just be a bug.

Or more likely, the person who wrote out the text didn't double check with the game mechanic design team to make sure it was worded exactly right.

 

[Brutus2]

Ok, I know this has nothing to do with the current adjacency discussion but I was just reading through the Russia thread and several people commented on how great the unique holy site is because unique districts are half cost allowing Russia to get a head start on founding a religion. Then I remembered that Japan gets half cost holy site, theatre district and encampment. I see lots of discussion on how strong Japan's adjacency is but three half cost districts seems really strong as well.

 

[Abraxis]

Ok, I know this has nothing to do with the current adjacency discussion but I was just reading through the Russia thread and several people commented on how great the unique holy site is because unique districts are half cost allowing Russia to get a head start on founding a religion. Then I remembered that Japan gets half cost holy site, theatre district and encampment. I see lots of discussion on how strong Japan's adjacency is but three half cost districts seems really strong as well.

There is no competition to get the first theatre or encampment districts up and running. Japan's holy district still takes a "district slot" (based on population). Japan's district does not look pretty as hell, and possibly yield a little more on top, which people could be underestimating in the form of the great person free tile.

There have been many to point out that is a very strong part of Japan's kit though, and it is, but so is the Lavre much better than Japan's holy district.

 

[SpaceCommunist]

Or more likely, the person who wrote out the text didn't double check with the game mechanic design team to make sure it was worded exactly right.

Either way, I hope to hear from Firaxis on the issue.

Ok, I know this has nothing to do with the current adjacency discussion but I was just reading through the Russia thread and several people commented on how great the unique holy site is because unique districts are half cost allowing Russia to get a head start on founding a religion. Then I remembered that Japan gets half cost holy site, theatre district and encampment. I see lots of discussion on how strong Japan's adjacency is but three half cost districts seems really strong as well.

I'm of the opinion that the Japanese Holy Sites are better than the Lavras in that respect. The only real downside to the Japanese Holy Sites is that they do in fact take up a district slot, but I feel like this could be countered - Japan is not hindered by a tundra start bias like Russia is, and thus may have more avenues to get grasslands/fresh water cities and build pop quickly. Furthermore, the adjacency bonuses the UA is supposed to provide (according to the pre-release text) would be phenominal in regards to acquiring an early pantheon/religion.

 

[Abraxis]

Either way, I hope to hear from Firaxis on the issue.



I'm of the opinion that the Japanese Holy Sites are better than the Lavras in that respect. The only real downside to the Japanese Holy Sites is that they do in fact take up a district slot, but I feel like this could be countered - Japan is not hindered by a tundra start bias like Russia is, and thus may have more avenues to get grasslands/fresh water cities and build pop quickly. Furthermore, the adjacency bonuses the UA is supposed to provide (according to the pre-release text) would be phenominal in regards to acquiring an early pantheon/religion.

They will get their pantheon long before adjacency comes into play, that doesn't give them an edge there. (unless maybe city centre? which would put them on par with russia with a tundra for rushing the pantheon)

 

[Ulthwithian]

Either way, I hope to hear from Firaxis on the issue.



I'm of the opinion that the Japanese Holy Sites are better than the Lavras in that respect. The only real downside to the Japanese Holy Sites is that they do in fact take up a district slot, but I feel like this could be countered - Japan is not hindered by a tundra start bias like Russia is, and thus may have more avenues to get grasslands/fresh water cities and build pop quickly. Furthermore, the adjacency bonuses the UA is supposed to provide (according to the pre-release text) would be phenominal in regards to acquiring an early pantheon/religion.

I'm not sure I understand you here.

You are saying that Japan's UA (specifically its adjacency bonus) would be 'phenomenal' for acquiring an early pantheon/religion? Can we define 'early' here? Japan gets no adjacency bonus from its UA until it has two districts in a city, correct? (Or one district in each of two cities that are adjacent, I suppose.) Isn't that at, what, population 6 and researching enough Techs/Civics to actually have two to put down? From the LPs I don't see that happening too early at all...

I feel like I'm missing something here.

Edit: Ah, City Center counts? Well, that may be something, but now you're talking about eating up quite a few hexes around your city center early (which are useful for other things like aqueducts and also workable tiles early) to get a 1F bonus for your Holy Site? That sounds incredibly greedy as a decision mechanism.

 

[Galbias]

Ok, I know this has nothing to do with the current adjacency discussion but I was just reading through the Russia thread and several people commented on how great the unique holy site is because unique districts are half cost allowing Russia to get a head start on founding a religion. Then I remembered that Japan gets half cost holy site, theatre district and encampment. I see lots of discussion on how strong Japan's adjacency is but three half cost districts seems really strong as well.

Yeah, the 3 cheap districts is a nice little bonus and I'm honestly more interested in that than the adjacency bonus (though they also synergize nicely), district costs are still fuzzy but it looks like they can get pretty expensive.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Russia will get the first pantheon, probably before anyone Starts a holy site, because it is the only civ that starts with faith access (work 1 tundra tile and you are 1/2 way to a pantheon before anyone else gets any faith[God King normally would be the first faith available]..except goody huts)

As for early religion... there it is Russia and Japan tied since there it is a race for Prophet points, not faith.. get the Holy Site + Shrine first [Greece might match them by going for the Prophet wild card]

 

[Ulthwithian]

Russia will get the first pantheon, probably before anyone Starts a holy site, because it is the only civ that starts with faith access (work 1 tundra tile and you are 1/2 way to a pantheon before anyone else gets any faith[God King normally would be the first faith available]..except goody huts)

As for early religion... there it is Russia and Japan tied since there it is a race for Prophet points, not faith.. get the Holy Site + Shrine first [Greece might match them by going for the Prophet wild card]

I dunno about halfway... if you don't have a resource tile on tundra, Rome's culture generation should enable them to get God King well before any other Civ. That would help them catch up, and your only recourse as Russia would be to work otherwise marginal tiles at a time in the game that growth is generally critical.

Edit: Oh, this just struck me. Does Japan have the only Encampment cost reduction in the baseline game? That's interesting, and means that they would be a tough nut to crack defensively, no?

 

[Cyon]

Japan seems to be so fun to play! And also top tier, together with China probably the best civ.

 

[Magil]

Russia will get the first pantheon, probably before anyone Starts a holy site, because it is the only civ that starts with faith access (work 1 tundra tile and you are 1/2 way to a pantheon before anyone else gets any faith[God King normally would be the first faith available]..except goody huts)

As for early religion... there it is Russia and Japan tied since there it is a race for Prophet points, not faith.. get the Holy Site + Shrine first [Greece might match them by going for the Prophet wild card]

The first one to found a pantheon will be the first one to snag a holy relic from a tribal village. That thing is enormously powerful.

 

[Ulthwithian]

The first one to found a pantheon will be the first one to snag a holy relic from a tribal village. That thing is enormously powerful.

While possible, we don't know if that's difficulty-gated, and so may not be possible on higher difficulty settings.

I would imagine that just getting 20 Faith will be a much bigger source of 'goody hut Pantheon creation'.

 

[Magil]

While possible, we don't know if that's difficulty-gated, and so may not be possible on higher difficulty settings.

I would imagine that just getting 20 Faith will be a much bigger source of 'goody hut Pantheon creation'.

Granted, I haven't noticed +20 Faith straight-up from a tribal village yet, but if it is therein then yes, that will also lead to it. And having two high faith output results from villages makes that outcome all the more likely.

 

[Ulthwithian]

FilthyRobot, IIRC, saw it happen twice in one game. I think his Norway game?

So yes, can definitely occur in Prince.

 

[shaglio]

According to the UA, and I quote from the current pre-release build: "Meiji Restoration - All districts receive and additional standard adjacency bonus for being adjacent to another district." This means Japan is supposed to get the +1 yield of a standard adjacency bonus in addition to the +0.5 yield of a minor adjacency bonus. The minor adjacency bonus, however, is calculated as +1 for every two districts, so that needs to be taken into account. The final bonus, then, should be calculated as follows: +1 per each individual district, along with a +1 for every two adjacent districts.

I don't know about that. "All districts receive an additional standard adjacency bonus for being adjacent to another district," is not equivalent to "All districts receive an additional standard adjacency bonus for each district they are adjacent to." I interpret that as meaning: once all the adjacency bonuses are calculated, add +1 to the total. Therefore, where a vanilla civ would get a +3 bonus, Japan gets a +4 bonus. And where a vanilla civ would get a +6 bonus, Japan gets a +7 bonus.

 

[Ulthwithian]

I don't know about that. "All districts receive an additional standard adjacency bonus for being adjacent to another district," is not equivalent to "All districts receive an additional standard adjacency bonus for each district they are adjacent to." I interpret that as meaning: once all the adjacency bonuses are calculated, add +1 to the total. Therefore, where a vanilla civ would get a +3 bonus, Japan gets a +4 bonus. And where a vanilla civ would get a +6 bonus, Japan gets a +7 bonus.

I find this unlikely, although I admit that it's a valid reading of the ability sans examples.

However, they as game designers should know not to use game terms in ambiguous circumstances. Adjacency bonuses always are cumulative; that is, if I have n adjacent tiles that satisfy the condition, then I should get n * bonus additional resources from adjacency. (Yes, it's not quite that with the minor/0.5 bonus.)

Why, then, would they turn it around and use it for just a single yield increase? 'Your Districts get +1 to their primary yield while adjacent to another District' is far clearer and avoids confusion of reserved game terms.

 

[homan1983]

I don't know what peopel find so hard about understanding the Japanese trait. It's worded badly but it means instead of the usual +1 per 2 districts (i.e. +0.5 per district) they get +1 per 1 district. This includes the city centre.

So a campus build next to just their city give +1 science. And campus and holy site build next to eachother and city give +2 each.

That's very powerful, especially in conjunction with the fact that it normally doesn't give +0.5, but +1 per 2 districts, meaning if you have an odd number of districts, it is MUCH MORE than +100% bonus.

The fact that they get 3 half price districts is simply amazing as well. Especially since one of them is religious.

I know a lot of people are saying it's worse than a unique district because it required pop, but from my experience of watching lets plays, I notice districts are taking something like 30-40 turns for even medium cities (and more on new cities). So its frequently seen that cities are well below their pop-district-limit.

 

[Ulthwithian]

I don't know what peopel find so hard about understanding the Japanese trait. It's worded badly but it means instead of the usual +1 per 2 districts (i.e. +0.5 per district) they get +1 per 1 district. This includes the city centre.

So a campus build next to just their city give +1 science. And campus and holy site build next to eachother and city give +2 each.

That's very powerful, especially in conjunction with the fact that it normally doesn't give +0.5, but +1 per 2 districts, meaning if you have an odd number of districts, it is MUCH MORE than +100% bonus.

The fact that they get 3 half price districts is simply amazing as well. Especially since one of them is religious.

I know a lot of people are saying it's worse than a unique district because it required pop, but from my experience of watching lets plays, I notice districts are taking something like 30-40 turns for even medium cities (and more on new cities). So its frequently seen that cities are well below their pop-district-limit.

I don't think that Japan's UA is 'worse' than a UD (and most people are comparing it to the Lavra) but that's a holistic argument. It is self-evidently true that Japan's Holy Site is worse than Russia's Lavra, as the Lavra gets all the bonuses of Japan's Holy Site and more. As you note, ignoring restrictions is part of it. If there are costs that UDs ignore, that may be another.

If you want to compare Japan's UI to Russia's UI, that's apples and oranges, really. If you want to compare Japan's UA to Russia's UI, that's also apples and oranges. The only really fair way to compare them would be Japan's UA + UI with Russia's UA + UI, and even that might be difficult.

 

[Atlas627]

I find this unlikely, although I admit that it's a valid reading of the ability sans examples.

However, they as game designers should know not to use game terms in ambiguous circumstances. Adjacency bonuses always are cumulative; that is, if I have n adjacent tiles that satisfy the condition, then I should get n * bonus additional resources from adjacency. (Yes, it's not quite that with the minor/0.5 bonus.)

Why, then, would they turn it around and use it for just a single yield increase? 'Your Districts get +1 to their primary yield while adjacent to another District' is far clearer and avoids confusion of reserved game terms.

I agreed with this until we found out that the Commercial Hub's Major adjacency for River edge only applied up to 1 time.

 

[stiiknafuulia]

I agreed with this until we found out that the Commercial Hub's Major adjacency for River edge only applied up to 1 time.

...Seriously? 'Cause if true, that's worse than nothing; it's a slap in the face! If I find a fertile river valley which can have five river tiles touching my commercial hub, I want it to *matter*, goddammit! I'm starting to second-guess the devs when they make baffling choices like this.