Japan
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Legen
Emperor
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I completed one game just before the feb. 23 patch, Communitas map (people seem to love this map) and strategic balance, with the wide cultural gameplay mentioned before, and it went somewhat better than expected.
The starting position of the Capital doesn't really matter that much due to the Dojo. The extra
on Iron and Horses are pretty much an extension of the UA, meaning a city with 2 sea resources/atolls can provide as much culture as a 5-sea/atoll one with enough Iron/Horses nearby. Since you have some guarantee to have both land resources with strategic balance near your Capital, rerolling your starting position isn't that relevant in the long run (though still useful in the first two eras).
Generating Tourism with Japan is easy once you get Hotel/Stadium/Airport, since the Dojo's culture on Iron/Horse improvements also counts for the Hotel. It also helps that Autocracy's Air Superiority provies a free airport in your cities, making it a strong tenet for both military and culture victory for this civ. Overall, Japan could be considered to have some (non-negligible) free Great Artist/Writer/Musician once you get these buildings.
The change to the Great Musician to also consider culture output plays in favor for Japan, as the UA + Dojo can provide more culture per city than Amphiteathers + Opera Houses in a wide gameplay.
The Dojo could support wide gameplay more if it didn't require a Barracks to be built in the city, just like the Basilica (Byzantium's UB temple replacement) doesn't require a Shrine (it's a Monument instead). When you settle near Iron/Horses, you want the Dojo up quickly for the
to speed up all other buildings ( also helps if going Authority). But, since the Dojo is expensive when you research Chivalry AND require a building that doesn't provide without an Arena first, you prioritize other buildings instead. As such, the Dojo's effect is (annoyingly) delayed in new cities.
The UA in general invites you to conquer coastal cities that can provide you with a monopoly in any sea resource. Some monopolies result in huge yields when coupled with Japan's UA (Pearl tiles giving +6 and whales giving +10% 
on all cities, for instance). The melee naval units building fishing boats is useful when capturing cities, since you're free to pillage their sea resources without any or 
cost to rebuild them once the city is conquered. And, since Bushido applies to naval/air units as well, you can mount a strong coastal siege even without a UU naval unit. You should take advantage of it even if Conquest is your last victory intended (in fact, you don't need to conquer 
capitals if you can get the monopoly without it, avoiding the -80 diplo modifier).
Overall, playing a (mostly) peaceful gameplay didn't felt like a waste of Japan's UA and UB. I think it's safe to say that the CBP addressed the complaint that Japan was one-dimensional.
The starting position of the Capital doesn't really matter that much due to the Dojo. The extra
on Iron and Horses are pretty much an extension of the UA, meaning a city with 2 sea resources/atolls can provide as much culture as a 5-sea/atoll one with enough Iron/Horses nearby. Since you have some guarantee to have both land resources with strategic balance near your Capital, rerolling your starting position isn't that relevant in the long run (though still useful in the first two eras).Generating Tourism with Japan is easy once you get Hotel/Stadium/Airport, since the Dojo's culture on Iron/Horse improvements also counts for the Hotel. It also helps that Autocracy's Air Superiority provies a free airport in your cities, making it a strong tenet for both military and culture victory for this civ. Overall, Japan could be considered to have some (non-negligible) free Great Artist/Writer/Musician once you get these buildings.
The change to the Great Musician to also consider culture output plays in favor for Japan, as the UA + Dojo can provide more culture per city than Amphiteathers + Opera Houses in a wide gameplay.
The Dojo could support wide gameplay more if it didn't require a Barracks to be built in the city, just like the Basilica (Byzantium's UB temple replacement) doesn't require a Shrine (it's a Monument instead). When you settle near Iron/Horses, you want the Dojo up quickly for the
to speed up all other buildings ( also helps if going Authority). But, since the Dojo is expensive when you research Chivalry AND require a building that doesn't provide without an Arena first, you prioritize other buildings instead. As such, the Dojo's effect is (annoyingly) delayed in new cities.The UA in general invites you to conquer coastal cities that can provide you with a monopoly in any sea resource. Some monopolies result in huge yields when coupled with Japan's UA (Pearl tiles giving +6
and whales giving +10% on all cities, for instance). The melee naval units building fishing boats is useful when capturing cities, since you're free to pillage their sea resources without any or cost to rebuild them once the city is conquered. And, since Bushido applies to naval/air units as well, you can mount a strong coastal siege even without a UU naval unit. You should take advantage of it even if Conquest is your last victory intended (in fact, you don't need to conquer capitals if you can get the monopoly without it, avoiding the -80 diplo modifier).Overall, playing a (mostly) peaceful gameplay didn't felt like a waste of Japan's UA and UB. I think it's safe to say that the CBP addressed the complaint that Japan was one-dimensional.
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attorneyatlol
Chieftain
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Are naval melee units supposed to be consumed when it builds a fishing boat? If so, that seems terrible. Why would I throw away a unit I can use or gift to CS when I can just buy a fishing boat?
That sounds like a bug. I can't believe that destroying naval ships to make fishing boats was an intentional design.
Legen
Emperor
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Definetively not. They weren't consumed in previous betas.
EDIT: indeed, they are being consumed in the feb. 24 beta. Certainly a bug.
mikes61293
Warlord
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The Dojo could support wide gameplay more if it didn't require a Barracks to be built in the city, just like the Basilica (Byzantium's UB temple replacement) doesn't require a Shrine (it's a Monument instead). When you settle near Iron/Horses, you want the Dojo up quickly for thec5culture: also helps if going Authority). But, since the Dojo is expensive when you research Chivalry AND require a building that doesn't provide
I like the idea of not requiring a barracks in the city. It will allow the building to be more useful in cities where you don't intend to produce units. I'd also like to see the building moved to steel where the armory is. This will allow you to get the dojo at the same time as the samurai.
ExpiredReign
Deity
I believe I'm correct in saying the 'Crime reduction' bonuses for various buildings is cumulative, so my question then is:
How is the Dojo being able to built without first building a barracks a good idea? The player misses out on any bonus from the barracks.
If my initial assumption is wrong, then fine, I can see it as acceptable but if I'm correct wouldn't an increase in the Dojo's 'crime reduction' be in order?
How is the Dojo being able to built without first building a barracks a good idea? The player misses out on any bonus from the barracks.
If my initial assumption is wrong, then fine, I can see it as acceptable but if I'm correct wouldn't an increase in the Dojo's 'crime reduction' be in order?
It is cumulative, but the rationale is that players who rush to Dojo can get it, and the unique promotions, without having to go through Barracks. Also the culture is good for border expansion in new cities.
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Der_Zorn_gottes
King
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It is an option, and always valuable.
There will be cities where you want the Dojo bonus, but don`t care about barracks.
There will be cities where you want the Dojo bonus, but don`t care about barracks.
Fragamemnon
Warlord
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Had a very pleasant game with Japan this weekend. I really like the way everything comes together into a pretty cohesive mix of militarism and industry. I still feel that it is pretty progress-tilted due to the need to rush sailing for your magic trireme, but it's milder than some of the other Civ's opening biases.
Samurai were not super useful because I didn't have to conduct an offensive war with them, but I could have done some major damage with them+trebuchets if that was a priority (I settled enough land to not need to conquer in this game).
Samurai were not super useful because I didn't have to conduct an offensive war with them, but I could have done some major damage with them+trebuchets if that was a priority (I settled enough land to not need to conquer in this game).
Legen
Emperor
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So, about the unique promotions from the Dojo:
First of all, Thal's/Barras' Unit Flag Promotions helps so much making good use of these unique promotions that I think this mod should be part of the CPP. Not just because of Japan, also because of Indonesia and Zulu, as well as those medics we sometimes forget where they are.
With the discussions about Shock/Drill not offering bonuses against fortified units, Courage may as well be changed to a different bonus; Kolaris suggested a "when attacking" version and, with Self Control already being the defensive version, it's a logical one.
Sincerity is weak at 25%, since the unit will gain at most 1 extra XP, sometimes 0 XP due to the game rounding it down. As Kolaris mentioned, since Sincerity is essentially passing up an unique promotion to get default ones faster, it may as well do it properly (raise to 50% or give a free promotion, for instance) or be replaced by its own effect.
Of the other virtues, I'm ok with them so far. There are other things about Japan worth mentioning, but I'll give more time to think about.
First of all, Thal's/Barras' Unit Flag Promotions helps so much making good use of these unique promotions that I think this mod should be part of the CPP. Not just because of Japan, also because of Indonesia and Zulu, as well as those medics we sometimes forget where they are.
With the discussions about Shock/Drill not offering bonuses against fortified units, Courage may as well be changed to a different bonus; Kolaris suggested a "when attacking" version and, with Self Control already being the defensive version, it's a logical one.
Sincerity is weak at 25%, since the unit will gain at most 1 extra XP, sometimes 0 XP due to the game rounding it down. As Kolaris mentioned, since Sincerity is essentially passing up an unique promotion to get default ones faster, it may as well do it properly (raise to 50% or give a free promotion, for instance) or be replaced by its own effect.
Of the other virtues, I'm ok with them so far. There are other things about Japan worth mentioning, but I'll give more time to think about.
phantomaxl1207
King
So making Sincerity 50% more XP means:
getting 3xp (+1) when bombarded
getting 6xp (+2) when attacked by Melee Unit
getting 7xp (+2) when attacking
Yeah Courage could be bonus when attacking.
As much as +15% might not seem as much, you're still Japan.
getting 3xp (+1) when bombarded
getting 6xp (+2) when attacked by Melee Unit
getting 7xp (+2) when attacking
Yeah Courage could be bonus when attacking.
As much as +15% might not seem as much, you're still Japan.
Legen
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The other thing I had in mind is the placement of the Dojo in the tech tree. There were already some requests to put it back to Steel due to its current placement delaying how fast one can get samurais benefitting from the dojo: you need two techs in order to get a full swarm of elite infantry at medieval, in addition to the time building both the dojo and the newly trained units.
I was thinking of moving the Dojo to Philosophy instead. This has three potential strategic benefits:
- supporting an aggressive military play at Classical Age, just when you have access to Courthouses
- allow Japan to already have armories ready when Steel is researched
- enable Japan to promote its Swordmen to Samurai without missing the benefit of the Virtues promotions
There are historical basis for that, as Japan already had the ideal of an educated warrior-poet back in its 700-800 A.C. literature, when it was also assimilating the teachings of foreign philosophies, and which would shape future developments of the warrior code.
Gameplay-wise, I'd expect more variety and fun in military play, particularly due to a smoother Classical->Medieval transition. Players tend to begin warring with Japan's infantry only at Medieval, after a rushed Dojo->Samurai in their cities, as it feels wrong to upgrade swordmen to see them missing the unique promotion and xp. This dread sometimes leads them to an abnormal approach for their swordmen/samurai and the proposed change should alleviate this, rewarding a more active Classical Era approach instead.
I was thinking of moving the Dojo to Philosophy instead. This has three potential strategic benefits:
- supporting an aggressive military play at Classical Age, just when you have access to Courthouses
- allow Japan to already have armories ready when Steel is researched
- enable Japan to promote its Swordmen to Samurai without missing the benefit of the Virtues promotions
There are historical basis for that, as Japan already had the ideal of an educated warrior-poet back in its 700-800 A.C. literature, when it was also assimilating the teachings of foreign philosophies, and which would shape future developments of the warrior code.
Gameplay-wise, I'd expect more variety and fun in military play, particularly due to a smoother Classical->Medieval transition. Players tend to begin warring with Japan's infantry only at Medieval, after a rushed Dojo->Samurai in their cities, as it feels wrong to upgrade swordmen to see them missing the unique promotion and xp. This dread sometimes leads them to an abnormal approach for their swordmen/samurai and the proposed change should alleviate this, rewarding a more active Classical Era approach instead.
Legen
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Since I worte about the Dojo in the Zulu thread, might as well add it here:
Now, I don't think Japan needs more military strength, I only think the unique promotion isn't that fun to use. Eight promotions feels too messy to plan around it and a few of them don't contribute as much, or as often, as the rest. It could be trimmed around two or three promotions and be revealed at the time the unit is created, so we can opt to tailor its following promotions around the one it got from the Dojo.
I still like the +10 heal component, though. I've been playing Progress->Authority lately with success, as the timing of the extra production and warring bonuses match well with the sudden need to build Dojos and Samurai in the early Medieval era. The +30 heal with Dojo+Dominance both synergizes with the UA's ferocity when wounded and lets you be very aggressive with your wounded infantry units. It's not rare to find that your unit ends healthier and safer by attacking instead of fortifying.
(...)
- The promotion is a randomly chosen one after the first combat, meaning you can't plan your unit around it until you already chose its promotions and sent it to the frontline.
- 6 of the 8 promotions are a +15%under a certain condition, which is questionable near the first free buffalo promotion and way behind the Buffalo Loins. And one of them is a bonus vs fortified units, which is quite a niche situation by the time you can have the dojo.
- One promotion is a +25% xp, which is essentially giving up the free promotion.
(...)
Now, I don't think Japan needs more military strength, I only think the unique promotion isn't that fun to use. Eight promotions feels too messy to plan around it and a few of them don't contribute as much, or as often, as the rest. It could be trimmed around two or three promotions and be revealed at the time the unit is created, so we can opt to tailor its following promotions around the one it got from the Dojo.
I still like the +10 heal component, though. I've been playing Progress->Authority lately with success, as the timing of the extra production and warring bonuses match well with the sudden need to build Dojos and Samurai in the early Medieval era. The +30 heal with Dojo+Dominance both synergizes with the UA's ferocity when wounded and lets you be very aggressive with your wounded infantry units. It's not rare to find that your unit ends healthier and safer by attacking instead of fortifying.
8 wasn't an arbitrary number: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushi...hid.C5.8D_.28as_envisioned_by_Nitobe_Inazo.29
I'd like to keep the historical authenticity of this.
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Legen
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I know 8 isn't arbitrary, it just isn't the only source of inspiration. But it's fair, and the historical theme is solid.
So, my suggestions would be the following:
- Adjust their icons to analogous existing promotions (Himeji's icon for Loyalty, Cover's icon for Self Control, Charge's icon for Righteousness...) for easier readability in the battlefield.
- Have the virtue be received at unit creation, rather than after the first combat, so we can tailor the standard promotions around the virtue.
- Adjust Courage to be applicable as often as its counterparts (suggestion: 15% when attacking).
- Adjust Sincerity so it is worth a promotion on its own (suggestion: 20 heal on kill).
The first two are because it is hard to perceive when the virtues are helping the unit (outside the +10 heal on kill), which is what takes away the fun of the virtues. They all have the same icon, there's no association between the promotions of the unit with the virtue to work as a reminder, the effect isn't as impactful as the ones from the Kris swordman to make the unit memorable and Japan tends to have lots of infantry units deployed, making it harder to keep track of which unit has what by memory alone. So, you don't plan ahead as much as you could to let the virtue work as much as it could for your unit. and you don't have the satisfaction of knowing that it helped in a given combat.
So, my suggestions would be the following:
- Adjust their icons to analogous existing promotions (Himeji's icon for Loyalty, Cover's icon for Self Control, Charge's icon for Righteousness...) for easier readability in the battlefield.
- Have the virtue be received at unit creation, rather than after the first combat, so we can tailor the standard promotions around the virtue.
- Adjust Courage to be applicable as often as its counterparts (suggestion: 15%
when attacking).- Adjust Sincerity so it is worth a promotion on its own (suggestion: 20 heal on kill).
The first two are because it is hard to perceive when the virtues are helping the unit (outside the +10 heal on kill), which is what takes away the fun of the virtues. They all have the same icon, there's no association between the promotions of the unit with the virtue to work as a reminder, the effect isn't as impactful as the ones from the Kris swordman to make the unit memorable and Japan tends to have lots of infantry units deployed, making it harder to keep track of which unit has what by memory alone. So, you don't plan ahead as much as you could to let the virtue work as much as it could for your unit. and you don't have the satisfaction of knowing that it helped in a given combat.
Don't think that's actually possible. This mechanic is a re-use of the one from the Indonesian unique unit.
Yep, not possible to give out 'random' promotions at creation. I really don't think there's anything wrong with the current Japan unique promotion system. They're all fairly useful, some more than others, and that's by design.
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Legen
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I suspected that. Oh well. Is the icon adjustment troublesome as well? With most promotions having a condition to work, it would help to tell at a glance (FlagPromotions mod) which one each unit has, just like we can know at a glance which one has Cover to survive an archer-heavy front, Medic to help a wounded unit, or Siege to stand against a city.
