That sounds like a lot, actually. A fishingboat is still quite a sizable sum, and being able to see (and I presume improve, even though the Sailing tech is actually required to build fishingboats) right from the start is fairly powerful.
Japan
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That sounds like a lot, actually. A fishingboat is still quite a sizable sum, and being able to see (and I presume improve, even though the Sailing tech is actually required to build fishingboats) right from the start is fairly powerful.
Think the same, too much a buff with the already existent UA, but what about changing the Samurai "Can improve water resources" to Naval Units?, either without limit or 1/2 improvements by unit.
At that point you could just let all Japanese units improve sea-resources, or even have all sea-resources automatically improve themselves. But for something like that, the extra yields from naval resources probably needs to go.
Allowing melee naval units to improve resources makes a lot more sense than samurai. The only problem with that is getting the function to work via promotion (currently works via unit type for the samurai, which is why they did it that way). I think I already set this functionality up for someone else, but I can't remember...I'll check. Anyways, that, plus the resource bonuses for sea resources and atolls, seems like a solid second-UA-element combo.
G
Legen
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It's similar to Indonesia's unique luxury spawn, which was extended to their UB (Candi) in the CBP. Their original UA was even more complicated, since it required you to found your city in a different landmass.
It's also stronger than what you propose, since Indonesia automatically gets a monopoly on each of their unique resource (including a +5 global
bonus). Coastal cities spawning a fish resource is pretty weak compared to that, even after Japan's UA.Since the problem is only that you often end with few to no ocean resources to improve, rather than work boats being too expensive (40
now, from 50 ), I think your suggestion is on spot.I really enjoyed this, since it helps reverting the nerf from BWN, when the damage penalty from being wounded went from -50% to -33%, and helps dealing with bombardment.
I'd like to ask how powerful you envisioned it to be. To fully revert the nerf, Japan would need a "up to +30%
" bonus, rather than a "up to +10% ". That's how much you'd need to make a fully wounded japanese unit deal twice more damage than it takes from another fully wounded unit with equal (assuming no other combat bonuses), like it used to be before BWN.Wow I hadn't heard of that. Can't say that I like it, but I doubt it's something a user could easily revert...
Finally Gazebo which is your decission about this? Can be implemented and tried in new iterations? Do you want a reminder in Github?
It's on my list-o-things-to-do. Currently dealing with caching issues and other shenanigans. That's why we're still in bay-tah (embracing the Boston accent a bit more).
G
Oh, perfect, thanks. Just had the doubt if this was discarded/forgotten or nonviable.
Edit
And even I see it's in the new release, great! I'll try them in a new game this weekend for sure!
Legen
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Japan had two big nerfs when BWN hit: the damage penalty from being wounded reduced to "up to -33%", and an adjustment that made the musketman +3
stronger than the Longswordman/Samurai (these three units used to have the same combat strength, so it didn't matter that they were close in the tech tree). Both nerfs had no meaningful compensation in the official patches, so Japan dropped considerably in most tier lists.The CBP fixed the latter by making the Samurai slightly stronger than the Musketman (as well as coming earlier). The adjustment to the UA partially reverts the former. The "up to +10%
" means a favorable damage gap of 0-2 damage between your unit and an enemy unit of similar strength. I expect a "up to +30% " to come very close of fully reverting it in practice.For a detailed analysis of the UA, the game uses the following formula:
- Damage = 30 * ((((x+3)/4)^4)+1)/2
where x is the combat ratio between the combatants (stronger/weaker). For the weaker unit's damage, you invert after dividing by 2. So, in a 25
Samurai vs 21 Longswordman scenario, the damage of both is calculated as follows:
Code:
Samurai damage = 30 * (((((25/21)+3)/4)^4)+1)/2 = 33.067
Longswordman damage = 30 * ((((((25/21)+3)/4)^4)+1)/2)^-1 = 27.217, assuming no other combat modifiers or penalty from being wounded.
If a non-Japanese/city combatant is wounded, it falls linearly from 30 to 20 (would be 15 before BNW). So, if you put two equivalent and fully wounded units to fight each other, the japanese one would deal +100% more damage in vanilla and +50% more damage in BNW. In CBP, we have (assuming no other combat bonuses):
Code:
Japanese damage = 30 * ((((1.1+3)/4)^4)+1)/2 = 31.557
Other civ damage = 20 * (((((1.1+3)/4)^4)+1)/2)^-1 = 19.013
Code:
Japanese damage = 30 * ((((1.3+3)/4)^4)+1)/2 = 35.032
Other civ damage = 20 * (((((1.3+3)/4)^4)+1)/2)^-1 = 17.127, or a +105% more damage (+8 damage gap), closer to what you'd have in vanilla. This also gives an idea of how big the BNW nerf was for Japan.
Remember, though, that combat bonuses stack additively, and aren't to be confused as combat ratio (x). A +30%
and a +10% result in a +40% together, not a +43% . That means that, as both combatants accumulate sources of combat bonuses (promotions, general/admiral, terrain, flanking, fortification, wonders, policies/ideologies, beliefs, monopolies, UA), any additional bonus offers less impact in terms of combat ratio (x). In other words, combat bonuses have a diminishing return.So, if both fully wounded combatants of same base strength have a +45%
(say, Shock III and Great General), a +10% Bushido means:
Code:
Japanese damage = 30 * (((((1.55/1.45)+3)/4)^4)+1)/2 = 31.061
Other civ damage = 20 * ((((((1.55/1.45)+3)/4)^4)+1)/2)^-1 = 19.316, or a +61% damage difference, while a +30%
Bushido would have:
Code:
Japanese damage = 30 * (((((1.75/1.45)+3)/4)^4)+1)/2 = 33.353
Other civ damage = 20 * ((((((1.75/1.45)+3)/4)^4)+1)/2)^-1 = 17.990, or a +85% damage difference (+6 damage gap), instead of +105%.
Since Bushido is based on how wounded your unit is, such examples are extreme cases, and you can expect a 0-1 favorable damage gap from the "up to +10%
" Bushido in most engagements. I don't expect the "up to +30% " to surpass a favorable 1-4 gap in most engagements due to how wounded your unit would have to be, and how many combat bonuses would have to be omitted.
Legen
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Pretty sure Bushido applies vs cities in the base game.
Just tested in the base game, to be sure, and didn't see any damage reduction from being wounded as Japan. And, when doing the same as Brazil, the damage reduction was clear.
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notque
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Agree with the RNG issue with Japan. I've played 3 Japan games in a row with an inland start on a Pangea NQ map. At that point, they are pretty nerfed, yet when you get an Atoll start they are amazing.
I don't have any great way to solve that problem, but I don't reroll starts and just play them out, and thus you can randomly get a lot of unoptimal Japan games.
The as they get damaged bonus is pretty nice, but as a conservative player, I tend to not let guys take more than 1 hit anyway, so when playing with Japan it's almost like I don't have a UA. I'm really just rushing for Samarai and Dojos which is a lot of fun
I don't have any great way to solve that problem, but I don't reroll starts and just play them out, and thus you can randomly get a lot of unoptimal Japan games.
The as they get damaged bonus is pretty nice, but as a conservative player, I tend to not let guys take more than 1 hit anyway, so when playing with Japan it's almost like I don't have a UA. I'm really just rushing for Samarai and Dojos which is a lot of fun
Pretty much my experience with most ocean-bias civs.
They do still do rather well even inland, I mean neither the UU or the UB suffers from it and the main half of the UA still remains.I don't have any great way to solve that problem, but I don't reroll starts and just play them out, and thus you can randomly get a lot of unoptimal Japan games.
The as they get damaged bonus is pretty nice, but as a conservative player, I tend to not let guys take more than 1 hit anyway, so when playing with Japan it's almost like I don't have a UA. I'm really just rushing for Samarai and Dojos which is a lot of fun
notque
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I agree, but the entirety of their bonus really comes at one period of the tech tree at that point, and that means there's really only one way to play them.
Get there, attack.
Just be happy you're not playing England Carthage or Polynesia
Even Portugal is pretty horribly gimped with an inland start but I can't even remember the last time I had a coastal start with them so I guess I'm biased.
notque
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Just be happy you're not playing England Carthage or Polynesia
Even Portugal is pretty horribly gimped with an inland start but I can't even remember the last time I had a coastal start with them so I guess I'm biased.
No question. I just think Civs should be pretty interesting.
Like wouldn't it be cool if Samarai's could spread your religions to owned cities (spreading bushido) or something.
Making them a more religious civilization as well. Something other than just warfare.
Legen
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Agree with the RNG issue with Japan. I've played 3 Japan games in a row with an inland start on a Pangea NQ map. At that point, they are pretty nerfed, yet when you get an Atoll start they are amazing.
I don't have any great way to solve that problem, but I don't reroll starts and just play them out, and thus you can randomly get a lot of unoptimal Japan games.
The as they get damaged bonus is pretty nice, but as a conservative player, I tend to not let guys take more than 1 hit anyway, so when playing with Japan it's almost like I don't have a UA. I'm really just rushing for Samarai and Dojos which is a lot of fun
Note that, while a particular start may not be that amazing, it doesn't mean Japan's UA is wasted; you may still find some island with lots of nearby sea resources, just play wide. See Satsuma in the image, that became an amazing city incredibly fast. Bonus with the Corvette building fishing ships, this addition was really amazing.
Ironclads didn't build fishing ship for some reason, I'm yet to check if feb. 17th beta changed it.
Capturing coastal cities that happen to have some sea resources also help consolidating your conquest; you're able to fix its Boredom unhappiness faster with the fleet you brought.
The bonus strength as they are wounded is supported by the Dojo's "Eight Virtues of Bushido" (+10 heal when defeating an enemy, plus one random virtue after the first battle) and the Authority's Dominance social policy (+20 heal when defeating an emeny, plus samurais screaming "For Science!"). Since your unit can heal after tough battles, you run into less risk when being aggressive with your melee units.
Though, I wish the virtues of the Dojo's promotion were easier to keep track of. When I'm cycling my melee front to heal those that are heavily wounded, any planning to maximize the benefits of those virtues is throw away and I end just considering the +10 heal part.
The Dojo's
culture and hammer is pretty much designed around Strategic Balance. If you don't choose it, they become inconsistent. Not sure if much of a problem, at least you can control which kind of game you're into.One of Japan's main complaint in BWN was how one-dimensional it was; they tried to fix that with fishing boat bonus. Glad CBP buffed it a bit.
Assuming Strategic Balance, the Dojo + buffed sea resource bonuses have potential for a good wide gameplay. Progress/whatever/industry/order should be interesting, with lots of
culture output to get those social policies. When needed, use Japan's martial prowess for defense or expansion towards more Iron and Horses, including their Strategic Monopoly (+10% when attacking/defending, respectively).It also helps that Historical Events and trade route buildings (e.g. Customs House) provide tourism based on the civ's culture output (how much? Couldn't find in the changelog). So, teorically, you could aim for a cultural victory as Japan by simply building culture and playing wide, leaving conquest for specific cases or as a backup. Whether it is strong, depends on how well it is balanced.
I'll try later this gameplay.
PS: Satsuma is on an Iron tile.
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