JB2 - Neo-Fascists (C3C Deity)

[Improviser]

Thanks, there is one barbarian horse in the fog near Caesarea I think, and the rest are all visible. It's really strange that they aren't making any moves, which makes it harder for us- firstly as they will slow down any expansion, which I think after (hopefully) completing the great library we will have to do very rapidly. Secondly they will also force us to go on the offensive, which in terms of barbarian horseman means they will get the first attack (as we will be unlikely to research Horseback Riding ourselves).

More than likely, when we contact other civs with the Great Library it will immediately expire, so our economy has to be in a strong position for buying techs at first, and then hopefully some research later. Clearing out all the jungle will take time, as well as constructing a forbidden palace, probably somewhere in the South of the island.

I guess that is why I felt I should have been more aggressive in going after the barbarians, but I guess in hindsight I guess I made the right decision- at least I certainly hope so.

Improviser

 

[Kuningas]

Got it. Post tomorrow.

 

[mad-bax]

Have we learned the Wheel yet?

Assuming we are going to get the GL, we need to know whether we build warriors or charriots in order to upgrade en mass when we are discovered.

It is also crucially important that when we are discovered that we trade for all contacts on that turn to ensure we get full value from the GL (if we only have 2 contacts then we will only learn the techs that both of those contacts have and the GL will Expire).

To this end it is important that we build harbours on both sides of the island to ensure that we can trade our ivory for contacts if needed. We will not want to buy them for gold as it will limit our upgrading ability.

It goes without saying that we should not build regular units at all anymore.

Similarly, if we are going to build lots of warriors or chariots, the unit costs will kill us. Would we be better off in Monarchy then versus Republic? This will also help with happiness as we only have one lux.

For this reason I vote we research wheel. If we do not have horses, then we research Iron working. If we have no iron, then we can kiss our bottoms bye bye

Then we need to get to monarchy. Perhaps Monarchy should even be our first goal. What do you guys think?

 

[Improviser]

No, we haven't learnt The Wheel yet. It could probably be researched in 4 or 5 turns.

Assuming that Printing Press is researched trading contacts would definently be desireable. Unfortunately for harbours we need Map Making, which would likely take about 10 turns to research, or even more @ max science.

I think we would probably be better in Monarchy, as to run large cities in Republic will probably require about 30% luxuries. 3 MP will definently help with any problems on that front.

I agree with Mad-bax's research plan, at least on the Wheel and Ironworking bit. I think if we have neither horses or iron, then we must head for republic (I think the main economic improvement for us will be the unit support) and aim for a diplomatic or spaceship win (which probably defeats the intention of this game). It is likely that we will have at least one of horses or iron, hopefully both.

Improviser

 

[mad-bax]

I'm still thinking vanilla
The free unit support in Republic is something to consider, but on balance I still favour monarchy. My main point however stands, which is that we must continue to research, but we need to be very selective. At least 2 other civs are in the middle ages already so we can expect first contact in 30 to 40 turns.

If I were playing solo I would already be thinking ICS.

 

[Kuningas]

0 - pre turn
looks good.

1 - 730BC Constantinopole: Settler ->Settler, Nicae: Worker ->Spear.
Settler+warrior heading to SW - Whales dot.

2 - 710BC
There was nothing I could have done Mayan completed it when we had 5 turns left. Glib -> Palace. Lost painful 41 shields.

3 - 690BC Adrianople: Palace ->Library. More centered Palace gives little boost to our income.
Research to Map Making.

IT barb horse appeared of fog and killed 1 worker.
4 - 670BC
Heraclea founded ->Library

5 - 650BC Caesarea: Granary ->worker

6 - 630BC Adrianople: Library ->Settler, Varna: Worker ->Worker

7 - 610BC

8 - 590BC

9 - 570BC Constantinople: Library ->Worker, Adrianople: Settler ->Settler, Caesarea: Worker ->Worker
Lux to 20%

10 - 550BC

Are harbors half priced to us? We need cheap harbors/libraries which correspond seafaring/scientific traits.

Partly done dotmap for southern part. North is still occupied by barbs.

Life in the hole

 

[Kuningas]

Sorry I didn't read your thoughts.
My turns were

 

[TedJackson]

Oh well

Can't be helped.

So what do we try now? All victory conditions are enabled so we need to think about how to stop the AI launching or holding UN elections.

I think we're going to have to pick our tech path very carefully as we need to get to Astronomy/Magnetism as quickly as possible. Which leads me to suggest Feudalism as our next Government as it's on the main tech path.

Consider this a got it but I probably won't play until tomorrow to allow some discussion.


Ted

 

[Improviser]

Just wondering, can we tell what age the AI are in by using the wonder screen (that shows where all the wonders are built)? If so, on my turn the Maya were definently in the next age, and I can't be sure about the Aztecs or the Greeks (not sure what the pictures look like). The Greeks have the Great Lighthouse so hopefully with the sea lanes we should be found.

 

[Improviser]

I had a look at the save- we seem to be going very well given the circumstances. I think on one of the red dots we need to found a city then start straight away on the forbidden palace, maybe the dot ESE of Varna?

Feudalism would not be a particularly good choice of Government IMO- once the industrial age is reached then the government begins to falter, as the cities will either lack production power, or unit support. I guess the choice comes down to Monarchy or Republic.... I would say Monarchy as we will probably need the MP. I think Monarchy is close to equal to Republic in a non-war situation, and I think there will be at least one war in the game involving us.

For the next technology to research, I would suggest Ceremonial Burial as some cities (like the capital) could do with a temple, so we can lower luxuries and it is a required tech that can be researched in 4 turns, so the more expensive techs can wait until we have more cities and libraries for faster research. Also it sets us on the path to Monarchy.

Improviser

 

[JustBen]

Cheap Libraries will be the best way for us to get culture expansion, so having Literature is at least a small blessing.

Cheap Harbors are better than expensive Harbors, but won't be of much value before we contact some people. Still, they'll let us work the 3-gold (post-Despotic Era) coastal tiles, which will be important while we're still isolated.

Currency is significantly devalued thanks to being Scientific and having Literature. I think Improviser is right; we need to get our cheap technology researched ASAP so we're not "wasting" research on the 4-turn minimum imposed on us.

Banking needs to be our longest-range goal for now. They will find us long before Astronomy. They'll almost certainly even get Printing Press before we're even close to caught up. Though Markets aren't worth our time now, the moneymakers will be crucial for us to get back into the game -- which may be a long time. I'm thinking more like "Computers Slingshot" than "Nationalism Slingshot" at this point.

The good news is that no one can threaten us militarily. At least our island is our own.

Edit: Oh yeah, the government thing. We can't wait for Feudalism and Republic will drown us. We only get 1 free unit per "Town", past which we're paying 2 gptpu. Uncacceptable. As nice as the commerce bonus would be, Monarchy is the only realistic choice at this point.

 

[TedJackson]

JB2-550BC

Pre-flight checks... OK

Settler SW
Press button...

Constantinople Worker - Spear
Nicea Worker - Lib (pre-build for Harbour)

1 - 530BC
Settler SW
Workers road & mine

IBT
Adrianople Settler - Settler
Stack of barbs (8 horse, 1 warrior) appear SSE from Varna
Atlanta (America) completes Hanging Gardens

2 - 510BC
Settler SW
Lux 0%
Research 80% (+1gpt)

IBT
Caesarea Worker - Barracks
Varna Warrior - Barracks

3 - 490BC
Warrior fort Varna (barbs didn't move)
Trebizond founded (3SW Varna) - Warrior

IBT
Washington (America) completes Temple of Artemis

4 - 470BC
Workers work...
Lux 10% (Adrianople, -1gpt)

IBT
Constantinople Spear - Settler
Argos (Greece) completes Knights Templar (Chivalry)

5 - 450BC
Spear (Constantinople) heads for Eilte Archer (NW Nicaea)

IBT
Adrianople Settler - Spear

6 - 430BC
Settler (Adrianople) heads for elite Archer (NW Nicaea)
Chalcedon founded (Fish, NE coast) - warrior

IBT
barb stack moves to S Varna

7 - 410BC
Workers work...

IBT
Athens (Greece) completes Sistine (Theology)
Barb forces split - 4 horses SW Varna, 4 horses + 1 warrior NE Trebizond

8 - 390BC
Settler fort NW Nicaea (waiting for 2nd Spear from Adrianople next turn)
Workers work...

IBT
Game hangs inter-turn so I reload and replay
Trebizond ransacked for 5gp, 4gp, 4gp, 3gp, 3gp
Discover Map Making - Iron Working
Adrianople Spear - Settler

9 - 370BC
Spear (Adrianople) heads for NW Nicaea
Nicaea switches to Harbour

IBT
Constantinople Settler - Settler
Caesarea Barracks - Spear
Smyrna Lib - Barracks
Tenochtitlan (Aztec) completes Sun Tzu (Feudalism)

10 - 350BC
Settler (Constantinople) S - I suggest he makes for the jungle tile South of the elite Archer fortified on the mountain SE of Caesarea
Lux 0%
Research 70% (6 turns @ +2gpt, 23gp in the bank)

Notes & save follow...


Ted

 

[TedJackson]

Our Core

Note the stack of barb horse SW of Varna

The Southeast

I've indicated 2 possible city sites. I think Red then Green would be the best order.

The Northwest

Settling on the Ivory would disperse the barb camp.

Notes
Adrianople MMed to produce Settler & growth on same turn.

The stack of barbs showing up in the South put paid to any plans of expanding round the coast there.

Instead I settled on the NE coast and started preparing a strong enough party to settle on the NW peninsula. It would probably be best to wait for the vet Spear in production at Caesarea before founding on the Ivory (thus dispersing the barb camp) with all the military currently fortified on the hill NW of Nicaea.

The Settler currently South of Constantinople is best heading for the jungle tile South of the fortified Archer SE from Casearea (IMHO).

I chose Iron Working as our next tech in the hope that we might have Iron and finally be able to do something about the barbs.

The save is > here <


Ted

 

[Improviser]

Well played

Our expansion is looking good, and the barbarian problems are coming to an end. I think after Iron Working we must head for The Wheel if there is no iron, or Ceremonial Burial if we have iron. We must try and not research the expensive techs until we have more cities, no matter how long we wait to research CB, there is still the 4 turn cap on learning it.

Improviser

 

[JustBen]

I like Ted's top X-map, and his second one agrees with the one I posted back on page 2. Be very, very careful about settling in the Ivory peninsula! That's a huge stack of barbarians waiting to punish us up there.

Roster:
Ben
Improviser
Kuningas
TedJackson
Mad-Bax (up next!)
Greebley (on deck)

 

[mad-bax]

Got it. Playing tonight.

 

[mad-bax]

I don't suppose I can persuade anyone to re-roll the start can I? We are an entire age behind with no contacts. We could lose this game without ever meeting an opponent.

(0) 350BC:
We are way short of workers, but I didn't veto any builds. I did send the settler and a couple of spears to the ivory tile to wake up the barb camp.
IBT:
The barb stack attacks the settler stack, killing one spear.

(1) 330BC:
No News

(2) 310BC:
Found Sardica - rax
IBT: Forbidden Palace pop-up.
Trebizond warrior - worker

(3) 290BC:
No News
IBT:
Adrianopole settler - worker
Heraclea Library - Harbour

(4) 270BC:
Nothing Happened
IBT:
Constantinople settler - spear

(5) 250BC:
Pity you can't irrigate through hills with this patch.
Killed a barb with the elite archer.
Adjust slider for IW
IBT:
Learn IW research wheel. Maths->currency-> markets are not that attactive with only one lux.
Adrianople worker - settler
Chalcedon warrior - worker

(6) 230BC:
We have one source of iron in the South East. We are a long way from connecting it.
Found Naissus - warrior
Move the garrison from Caesarea to provide settler escort and hire a taxman to compensate. Only temporary.
IBT:
Caesarea settler - spearman
Varna rax - spear

(7) 210BC:
No Change

(8) 190BC:
Smyrna needs a taxman for this turn. Missed the need for an extra unit in the city and there wasn't one spare within one turns reach.
IBT:
Constantinople spear - settler.

(9) 170BC:
Adjusted slider for wheel.
IBT:
A green galley shows up at Trebizond
Learn wheel research Maths. Now we have contacts we may be able to trade for luxes. Markets will help now.

(10) 150BC:
I'm learning all the time. The settler can't found a city in swamp.
Greece have 14 cities, 4000 gold and every tech you can name. They also have 2 luxes connected, but none spare.
I did not attempt any trading, the next player can fill his boots.

There is a warrior on the way to Naissus.
The settler on the coast will plop a city 1 tile SE, he is a bit out on a limb so I am sending an archer to help him out.

Give in yet?

Sorry to be so pessimistic, but I don't believe this game is remotely winnable. I have no problem continuing, it's just that I don't believe we will get to test the premise upon which this SG is based.

Here is our territory.

Here is the >>save<<

 

[Greebley]

I am back from Arisia and appear to be up. I will play today or tomorrow.

Out of curiousity, does anyone know of another SG with this kind of start (preferably at deitiy) and no GLib? I would be curiouse to see how others handled it and how it turned out.

 

[Improviser]

Yes, RB Epic 37 was similar to this, except probably easier. This game is still very winnable. We do have a very large island, and once our contact gets sold around we can begin to catch up in technology. We will be buying at last civ price for a long time, so research should be switched off entirely (it is cheaper).

More than likely there will be some lagging AI's, so buying off them will prop them up and then it will keep the AI's more even in technology. I think we should be prepared to switch on research once we hit the industrial age (cheap libraries and universities )..... this game isn't lost- not by a long shot. With about 16-20 cities on our island, we will have more than most AI's.

Improviser

 

[JustBen]

Go read Scouting Sid again and tell me this game is unwinnable.

Time to start building Markets to fund our purchase of techs from the others. Greece will only sell at monopoly prices, but they'll sell our contact around soon.

We have iron! Sweet! Double-time a Settler down there before Greece poaches. We'll be glad for it when we find ourselves building railroads out of domestic resources. We may even have enough jungle to be coal-mongers to the world.

What's the status on our FP? Either the city due south or southeast of Adrianople will be the right choice. I think we'll cover more land with the one due south, but this is something we need to discuss.

Workers get top priority to clear out all that awful jungle, but don't neglect defenses. It'd suck to see an expeditionary force spoiling my sunny mood.

People who win at Deity never give up till the spaceship launches, and don't you forget it.