JB3 - Iroquois Mayhem (C3C Deity)

[Improviser]

Oops.... I forgot that to the south and to the west are two furs luxuries. We have a great starting location in terms of luxes.

Also, the volcano has erupted, it has not polluted any significant tile, it can be cleaned up a lot later.

Improviser

 

[JustBen]

Roster:
Ben
Improviser
TedJackson (up next)
Bede (on deck)
T_McC

Well, looks like I've gone and deluged Ted with the JB series. Take your time, especially on #2.

If we got 2 techs out of Writing I'm happy. But I'm really hoping we can do something tight with our Mounted Warriors. How's the progression toward HBR going?

Or should we just consider war a "pipe dream" and focus on getting to a good gov't ASAP? It may be worth our while to beeline for Monarchy and try to make something happen with a MW-fueled GA. This is more than a little risky, but I've beaten down pikes with swords in extreme situations, so maybe it's feasible? Watch for any AIs who lack iron; if that happens, consider their faces painted with a big, red bull's-eye.

 

[TedJackson]

Got it

I'll try to play tonight.


Ted

 

[T_McC]

Well, we're only three techs from HBR, so ...

I wouldn't worry about forcing a war with Mounted Warriors. Pair them with some artillery and it will be no problem to kick off a GA in the late Medieval or Industrial Age. [If someone doesn't have Iron, they're easy prey until Gunpowder, and that's still a long ways off.] Attack 3 goes a long way against anything red-lined before Infantry.

We have a lot of land to expand into, and I'm a big fan of cities you don't have to fight for. If Salamanca had some bonus food tiles we would be in a dominant position now. But since it doesn't, we likely will need an entire empire committment to expansion. That is the other reason I am against looking for a war at this time, we can't do war preparations without seriously crippling our own expansion.

Min sci on Lit looks good. We'll soon have enough cash to broker, and if the AI ignore Lit like they typically do in Conquests, we'll be able to trade ourselves into near parity in 40 turns.

One MM note from the save (although I'm sure Ted will see it). Swap the tiles Salamanca is working so that the settler completes on the turn of growth. We don't want the capital going back down to size 1.

 

[TedJackson]

JB3-2150BC

Pre-flight checks... OK

MM Salamanca for Settler & growth in 4 turns

press button...
Niagara Falls Worker - Settler
America starts Statue of Zeus

1 - 2110BC
Worker (Niagara Falls) starts road to join Salamanca
Spot barb warrior to the West of Salamanca (no immediate threat but could be a problem for the Settler)
Eastern Warrior scouts South
Northern Warrior S (escort for Settler)
Western Warrior NW

IBT
Barb warrior E

2 - 2070BC
Northern Warrior SE
Eastern Warrior scouts South
Western Warrior W

IBT
Barb Warrior fortifiies on mountain

3 - 2030BC
Eastern Warrior scouts East
Northern Warrior SE
Western Warrior scouts SW
Bugger! Arabia has discovered Literature (nobody else has it yet though)

IBT
Salamanca Settler - Spear

4 - 1990BC
Settler 2NW (avoiding barb) & Warrior escort joins
Eastern Warrior scouts Northeast
Western Warrior scouts S
Lux 0%
Arabia still has Lit monopoly

5 - 1950BC
Settler & escort W - heading for chokepoint SW of Furs
Damn! there's a barb camp E of the Furs
Worker mine - moves to SE Salamanca (road to Grand River)
Eastern Warrior scouts S
Western Warrior scouts S (enters Maya territory)

IBT
Maya asks us to leave - I agree

6 - 1910BC
Worker starts road to Grand River
Settler & escort NW (slightly longer route but then we'll be on forest as we pass barb camp)
Eastern Warrior scouts E
Western Warrior scouts S
Everybody has MM & Lit except China who only have MM

7 - 1870BC
Eastern Warrior scouts E
Settler & escort W
Western Warrior scouts S

IBT
Barb warrior (mountain) NW
Salamanca Spear - Settler
America starts Great Lib

8 - 1830BC
Spear fort Salamanca
Eastern Warrior scouts E (enters Chinese territory)
Settler & escort SW
Western Warrior scouts S

IBT
China asks us to leave - I comply
Grand River Spear - Settler
Arabia starts Temple of Artemis

9 - 1790BC
Spear fort Grand River
Settler & escort SW
Eastern Warrior scouts S
Western Warrior scouts W

10 - 1750BC
Eastern Warrior scouts E
Settler & escort SW
Western Warrior scouts W

Western Approaches

Eastern Frontier

Notes
I was leaving trading to my penultimate turn (to reduce gpt component) but forgot to do it
The next player could buy Lit from Arabia for 123gp + 2gpt and trade it away to America or Maya (both cheapest) for some of the other missing techs.

I left the extra Spears fortified in Salamanca & Grand River. They'll do for MP now and escorts for the upcoming Settlers as they come online.

The Western chokepoint Settler is in place (after a long and twisted walk to get there. Still, better safe than sorry

There are still 2 Warriors scouting to the East & West just in case there are more AI to be found.

The save is > here <


Ted

 

[Bede]

Got it

Nice start guys, will try to maintain expansion rate

 

[T_McC]

Just took a quick peek at the game, and it appears as though China is the only one who doesn't have Lit yet.

As far as targeting techs for the 2-fer with Lit, I think we should try to get Iron Working and/or The Wheel, so we can see the resources. Since there aren't two folks w/out Lit, I don't think we can get both Philosophy and CoL, which would have enabled a 50-turn on Republic.

 

[JustBen]

Black Border: Pending culture border of chokepoint town.

Red Dots: Dodge volcano, use all available squares.

Orange Dot: Free aqueduct, western port, good location.

Green Dots: Space-filling.

Purple Dot: Builds on top of desert, claims poor territory, claims incense.

Grey Dot: Excellent spot after draining marshland.

And no one seriously expects us to get all of them. Prioritization is up for debate.

 

[TedJackson]

Originally posted by T_McC
Just took a quick peek at the game, and it appears as though China is the only one who doesn't have Lit yet.

Quite so. For some strange reason I went round and checked everyone's price for Lit

@Ben: I'm happy with the Red spots but think that the SE Green could move NE (grab that Fur for trade sooner) and Purple SW (again grab the Incense ASAP).


Ted

 

[T_McC]

Agree with Ted that SE Green should move 1 NE, but I like the move for the defensive bonus when we fight whoever is south of us.

I also agree that the Pink(?) dot should be moved to the tile E of the Incense. Free aqueduct (by being on the river) and deserts are fairly useful to us being as we are agricultural.


The Green dot is completely screwed up by that move, so if we do settle E of the Incense we would have to reconsider the other western sites.

And I actually think we can get all of these sites, since we aren't going more than 2nd ring to our capital (and two of the three farthest cities have already been founded). We do need to find out where the resources are before we get too far along, in case we have to wander a ways to get iron or horses.

 

[Bede]

I am afraid I ran the turns pre discussion and dot map. Sorry. Won't happen again.

Abu wants 125g +2gpt for Lit Buy it!
Mao is the last without it and will offer either Wheels or Myst in exchange He'll throw in Warrior Code for another 5gpt Take TW and WC Start on Philosophy for possible bonus tech and trade opportunities Horses show up in the Salamanca suburbs and the exurbs of Niagra Falls

Horseback Riding is known to all

T1 1725BC

Arabs start Great Library

Found Allegheny on coast next to furs Start warrior

Cruise around the map trying to get a feel for the continent. It looks like an "E" standing on its legs and the Iroquois occupy the middle leg The Chinese and the Mayans occupy the eastern leg and the Arabs are on the western Can't find Abe or Teddie's lands yet There are two inland seas and we now occupy the narrow connectors between the legs

T2 1725BC

Salamanca finishes its settler and starts an Archer for barb killing duty. There's a camp near Allegheny and another in the southlands Not to mention the two fortified barbs outside Allegheny and in the Salamanca exurbs

The Maya start the GL, the Arabs the Oracle, the Byzantines the GL.

The settler with warrior escort start their trek towards the incense

The exploring warrior reaches Land's End SE of Arabia Deserta in the west and the warrior in China is on neutral ground in the middle of the China's cities

T3 1675BC

The barbarian wakes up and moves to threaten the warrior/settler pair on the mtn SW of Salamanca and the hikers move into the forest

Another barb camp shows up on the mountain SE of Salamanca

T4 1650BC

A barbarian moves out to threaten the worker roading to Grand River

Niagra Falls produces its settler and start a warrior

The Chinese start the Great Library

Everybody has learned Philosophy

T5 1625BC

America starts the TofA

Teddie finishes the Colussus in Constantinople

T6 1600BC

Mayan warriors show up south of Salamanca The Inland Sea must have a land brige somewhere

Settlers trek and workers work The archer sets out to eliminate the barb camp

T7 1575BC

Smoke Jag calls and demands tribute of 20g Cave He is disappointed and we will remember this
Teddie starts the TofA
Found Cattraugus NE of Salamanca start warrior

T8 1550BC
Settler and warrior continue trek to coast There are two barb camps in the neighborhood one just south and another further New city will go on top of incense in desert with access to floodplains and forest
Warriors explore and we find Beijing

T9 1525BC
Barbs appear from north and Mayan warriors take out barb camp south of Incense hill
Arab scout appears SE of Salamanca
Archer takes out barb camp east of Allegheny

T10 1500BC
Found Tonawanda in desert on top of Incense
Archer starts barb patrol to north

There is a settler waiting for escort and orders in Salamanca and another in Grand River
A massive barbarian uprising is reported near Niagra Falls so at least one of our neighbors has entered the MA, I think

Not at all satisfied with the way I played We lack the cash needed to buy techs and are way behind (don't even have IW yet as Mao wouldn't trade for it in the Lit deal and nobody else is interested in supporting our military) We'll have access to lots of luxuries in the future and likely places for iron Maybe someday we can research or buy HBR and in the meantime can hook up the horses and build chariots as MW precursors

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads6/JB3_1500BC.zip

 

[T_McC]

I got it, and should be able to play tonight.

Doesn't sound like a bad set of turns at all, Bede.

 

[T_McC]

JB3 - 1500BC

1500 BC (0)
Boy, I hate to start a report with criticism, but ... I really dislike where Cattaraugus was founded. One off the coast, and poaching Salamanca's second ring of tiles. We'll live, but one tile N or one tile E would have been much better. Still claims the gems, and that's what it is there for.

There are a lot of barbs in our core, I hope they don't start to pillage because we really don't have units to deal with them. We have one settler active, and another will be produced next turn. Don't change any of the build orders, and our 2 workers are doing reasonable things. I think I will stick to settlers on my turn, as we have a few more city sites to claim. Then we can start pounding out workers. Our growth curve will start a little flat, but should pick up nicely once we are content with our land grab.

I could buy IW from the Chinese, but the settler due next turn would then likely bankrupt us, and we can't be running taxmen already.

<Return>

1475 BC (1)
Grand River: Settler completes, set to settler. Allegheny completes warrior, starts worker. Three civs enter the Med. Age. Niagra Falls: Warrior --> Settler.

IT - Arabs jack us up for 22 gold. Paid. We have Major Barb problems, as 16 horses pop out of the fog.

1450 BC (2)
All about keeping the settlers safe. Cattaraugus: Warrior --> Worker. Hopefully the Northern Barbs can be baited here.

1425 BC (3)
Settler reaches desired spot. Have far too close a call, as a conscript warrior nearly takes out our reg spear, on a mountain, defending one of our settlers. Salamanca will get slammed next turn. Will try to give away our money for something. Buy Mysticism from Mao for 53 gold + 4 GPT. Barbs have nothing to take now.

IT - 8 Horses later, we lose 1 pop in Salamanca. City re-grows on the next turn, so we lost half a food box.

1400 BC (4)
Mauch Chunk founded to claim a furs. Took the river instead of a whale. Starts worker. See an American border peeking out of the fog in the south, our southward expansion will start to get hemmed in.

IT - Chinese complete Pyramids. Americans take 3 gold from us.

1375 BC (5)
Found St. Regis to link a number of borders. Starts worker.

1350 BC (6)
Mayans complete Great Library, Americans complete Oracle. Allegheny: Worker --> Walls.

1325 BC (7)
The Byz are fighting someone, but I can't tell who. Salamanca: Spear --> Spear. Disband our Eastern warrior, he had gotten stuck. Cattaraugus: Worker --> Granary.

1300 BC (8)
Spot an injured Mayan warrior outside of American border. Maybe they are at war? [Yes!] Next 8 barb horses prepare to sack Catt.

1275 BC (9)
We lose 8 gold at Catt. Arabs build Temple of Artemis.

1250 BC (10)
Mayans complete Great Wall. One of our Warriors actually wins on defense against a barb. Salamanca: Spear --> Settler. Tonawonda: Worker --> Warrior.

Notes for Ben:
We have 8 cities and 5 workers. There will be one settler completing on your first turn and two more are in production. I will post a dot-map following this report. We are past the barbarian problems and can explore the North for more city sites. We have at least 5 more city sites to settle before we need to concentrate fully on infra and workers. Having an empire with 0 bonus food tiles requires some shifting priorities.

 

[T_McC]

First a picture of our east:

The two red dots are sites I think we should settle. Given the layout of our other cities, there really isn't much wiggle room for these sites. The blue dot is tentative, since we don't yet know what else is down there, or where the Americans are settling.

Next our west:

Same deal here, the two red dots ensure we can use all the land tiles in our empire, and the blue dot is dependent on what else is up there.

I think we can realistically get all 6 of these sites. Being able to start with 14 cities (in a nearly-perfect two rings around our capital) on a small map will give us a terrific chance in this game. However, we are in for a rough 50-80 turns until all these sites are settled and we can start developing our cities. Just keep caving in to tribute, or better yet buy when we have the chance and keep our treasury unattractive.

Finally,

The Save

 

[JustBen]

Seen & claimed, but I've got to work out this "Lyapunov's Theorem" thing before I can get to it or JB2.

In the meantime, I will propose moving the northernmost red dot (eastern map) 1 square SW, building a Settler to disband Cattaraugus, and moving it 1 square N. Why? That volcano! I haven't lost a city to one yet, but they still terrify me. With that setup, we use every square around the volcano but not the threat itself.

The theory behind this is that it's better to stunt the growth of a city right now and start over than see it get leveled in 250 turns and start over then. I won't make this move without at least someone assenting, but I really want to do that.

Thoughts?

 

[T_McC]

Moving the Northern red dot onto the hill is an either-or situation. Without trying to do a real heavy analysis of the two sites, they are equally valid, so found wherever you feel like.

Probably the strongest argument in favor of founding on the hill is that the originally proposed site is the one unique two-food tile to the city. Building on the hill helps the early food situation.

I see the wisdom of moving Cattaraugus, but let's allow the others to weigh in.

 

[Improviser]

I think Cattaraugus should be moved (without looking at the save)... both it and Salamanca would become much more useful cities, Cattaraugus would make a good fishing village, and Salamanca would be much stronger, as we need our only virtually zero corruption city, to be working the full 21 tiles late in the game.

Improviser

 

[TedJackson]

I haven't opened the save but I would move Cattaraugus. It looks as if we could pop a Worker then abandon it from the picture.

The Red dot to the hill is more a matter of taste. In it's present position it could provide Mil Sup to Niagara Falls in one move (but is two moves from the core in either position).


Ted

 

[JustBen]

@Improviser: Since I'm up in JB2 & JB3 and you follow me in both, feel free to swap with me for a round on this one. If not, I'll hit it Friday evening PST. (I feel a certain sullen responsibility to take my turn in proper order over at JB2, though.)

 

[Improviser]

Sorry team, I'll have to ask for a skip. It's extremely busy here, as my cousin just got married, and there are 5 other people staying in the house, which includes them staying in the computer room... so there's no time at all for civ 3 for a few days.

Improviser