johny smith's ideas/suggestions

[Hydromancerx]

No one plays on earth maps?? Is that really the norm? I have literally never played C2C on anything but some form of earth map. That's how Civ should be played in my opinion.

While Earth maps are great, there is something to be said about a map you do not know what it looks like. The exploration part of the game is a lot more fun when you don't know how the map will be.

 

[johny smith]

Well considering that no everyone plays on an Earth map, civs are bound to be in places hey historically were not similar to where they were on Earth. In a random roll of the dice we could have England with Llamas, Silk and Obsidian, while China has Camels, Pumpkins and Silver and the Aztecs with Elephants, Wheat and Iron. How would those societies develop?

I never said only on a historical map. I said as above I would expect Egyptians would have some North Africa Culture. So I am expecting a North African region is randomly generated on a map, and no it does not need to be next to West African. The resources would be independent to me.

Without making atl-timeline cultures I have tried to make cultures that fit different niches. For instance before Europeans brought horses to America there were no horse cultures. But if there had been then they most likely would have been like the Cheyenne or Comanche.

But you just used Europeans that is broad to me. I would like to distinguish different types of influence. I am not talking only resources. I mean for example different technologies. For example
The Three Sisters is what kept some of the settlers alive coming to the New World. I would think that is a different tech. Not just a resource.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Sisters_(agriculture)

Even the darn Wikipedia link says some Native American thing. The tradition originated in Mesoamerica. The Anasazi adapted Maize into new strands that could be grown north of Mesoamerica.

Likewise the what ifs of other mixing cultures. What if South America and Africa met early on? Or North America and Australia? What kind of mixed culture would come out of them? These are the kinds of questions I would like C2C to try to answer through gameplay.

Never said that they could not mix. But while we are at why not just consider them Eurasians mixing with Americans. You grouping is so broad that it means very little, but fine if that is a way of looking at it. But what the hell is African?

You can assimilate other nations and make them into your own. Thus the game really evolves by what geography is round, who you meet, what happened in your game and what choices you the player has made.

Again never said I was against. But assimilation is replacing a culture. Acculturation is blending cultures. There should be both options.

I would love to have special bonuses available, however I would not like them to be preset to a specific culture. Or if it was it would be to the culture resource and not the civ you picked.

I said regional bonuses, and perhaps civ bonuses. This is one to have something other than the same line up with just resources mattering, but that is fine if with me if that is how you want to define them. With techs you could have blends of the technologies. So for example Atlatl Ostrich riders from a combination of Mesoamerican and Australian Aboriginals techs.

Such as your Mongolian horse tactics could be a special promotion and building you can make if you have Mongolian culture. But should not be something only get by choosing the Mongolian civ at the beginning of the game.

Yes and could it could be a prerequisite for mobile advanced tactics by combing say Knight Tactics with Mongolian Tactics to create some Chivalrous Nomadic Warriors. The tech idea was to give something more to make them unique. Not everyone of them would have to be used in make new cultures tech abilities.

However a better way would be to apply such things to the Cultural Heritage mod. Where if you did the right set of requirements you could get that cultural perk to your overall civ. Thus allowing the player to shape the culture of is own civ rather than a predefined path of "oh i picked Mongolian so I get this this and this. because Mongolians did that historically."

What are you shaping with combined cultures? All I saw was promotions and traits in that thread. Nothing wrong with it. But I would like to see more.

Having more dynamic choices means overall a lot more variety. Never having the same game twice or encountering the same civ twice.

Also you should really play C2C before you try to mod it. I can talk about it until I am blue in the face but if you have never played the mod you just will not understand.

Again never said not dynamic. I am saying from what I read you have a small pool that you are making many combinations from. The combinations are fine. I would like to increase the base to select from though.

I know that none of what I say means anything until someone makes representations of what you are missing in the beginning of the game. It is a general pattern, but how the default game was written, and people have expanded on the idea have just increased the narrow focus. I mean crap there is not one North American boat that is not modeled after something from the Old World. Default is something around the Mediterranean for the game models. The city sets are narrow minded. I mean the makers made a Sioux looking Native American set, and included Totem Poles.

So the only way I know to get this across would to make visible differences clear. So if I mod I want to works towards more variety at the opening of the Neolithic. You combos are fine afterwards with me. I just would like something more to work with. I do not know if anyone really particular cares to understand the early differences, but oh well I am more interested in that. There is enough differences left out of the game that it could be just a game in itself explaining it. If you can start with a large base of culture differences you can make more unique "dynamic" new cultures.

 

[johny smith]

Here is my suggestion for the beginning groups to navigate to get to the 16 groups said before. The eras names are in bold above the culture regions.

Proper would be Lower, Middle, and Upper, but this would be better to not confuse anyone.

I may be back if I get time from my work.

 

[Hydromancerx]

But you just used Europeans that is broad to me. I would like to distinguish different types of influence. I am not talking only resources. I mean for example different technologies. For example
The Three Sisters is what kept some of the settlers alive coming to the New World. I would think that is a different tech. Not just a resource.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_S...agriculture)

Even the darn Wikipedia link says some Native American thing. The tradition originated in Mesoamerica. The Anasazi adapted Maize into new strands that could be grown north of Mesoamerica.

I know all about the 3 sisters. Did you know that in Permaculture yu can have all sorts of combos that work like them? I found this cool website last month when working on the Agroforest building. Some great examples were ...

Horseradish + Cherry Tree
The horseradish keeps out weeds and keeps pests away from the cherry tree. The tree provides shade for the horseradish. Overall both grow better together.

Also they had a plant called Euphorbia Lathyrus L. - a.k.a. 'Gopher Purge', which is part of the milkweed family. It keeps out the gophers and voles and allows for carrots, garlic and lettuces to be planted around it without effecting the quality of the crops.

They even had a tomato plant growing on an oak tree. It kept the tomatoes away from the pests, kept it in the shade and allowed for the tree to be kept rather than removed from the farmland.

Sure the 3 sisters are unique in that they work in synergy and when eaten provide a complete protein. However they are far from the only combo of crops that can be made to work in synergy.

Again never said I was against. But assimilation is replacing a culture. Acculturation is blending cultures. There should be both options.

I ment assimilation as the game option. It allows you to take the regional culture of that civ. Such as Zulu gives you Native Culture (African) and as a result all of the cultures in Africa.

 

[Thunderbrd]

So the only way I know to get this across would to make visible differences clear. So if I mod I want to works towards more variety at the opening of the Neolithic. You combos are fine afterwards with me. I just would like something more to work with. I do not know if anyone really particular cares to understand the early differences, but oh well I am more interested in that. There is enough differences left out of the game that it could be just a game in itself explaining it. If you can start with a large base of culture differences you can make more unique "dynamic" new cultures.

I sense there's a lot of genius there struggling to get out. We're listening but at the same time we need you to understand the structure that exists here so that you can properly propose how we should adjust that structure.

Discussions have ranged regarding a more evolutionary cultural system but no proposal has been solid enough to work with. And although some ideas have been proposed and agreed that they were good ideas, manpower has also been a factor that has kept us from developing the cultural structure further.

Hydro did a LOT, and I mean a HELL of a lot of work (and still is working on it) to develop all the enormous number of cultures we have in the game and the more we have the more daunting any changes or adaptions to that system have begun to appear. But with some strong vision on HOW to adapt, WHAT to change, and with an understanding of what currently exists, I'm sure we're all open ears for great concepts to be presented on improving this system by someone who has the motive to enact the changes suggested. But when we comment back and criticize and pinpoint various 'issues' with proposals as such, keep in mind that we're trying to make sure that any further efforts in this realm are not wasted by a lack of forethought. There's just simply a lot to consider here so we need to be very careful and all be keeping an open mind as to how things can be best achieved. I know we all want a realistic structure at the same time as an enjoyable one.


I should take another moment to explain some things I had in mind for cultures.

But to do that, you'll need to understand our property system a bit. Do you understand how our Dynamic Properties work? Have you experienced how Diseases and Crime (currently applied dynamic properties) spread and affect cities?

 

[Hydromancerx]

I know that none of what I say means anything until someone makes representations of what you are missing in the beginning of the game. It is a general pattern, but how the default game was written, and people have expanded on the idea have just increased the narrow focus. I mean crap there is not one North American boat that is not modeled after something from the Old World. Default is something around the Mediterranean for the game models. The city sets are narrow minded. I mean the makers made a Sioux looking Native American set, and included Totem Poles.

i agree. Its extra frustrating when you have limited graphics to represent things. For instance for me the Hyena unit is that of a Striped Hyena yet has the button/icon of a spotted hyena. Until I can get a spotted hyena model in to help separate the two it will keep on bugging me like you do for cultures.

 

[johny smith]

Has anyone ever brought up the idea of adding commerces or yields? I am curious as to how it pertains to the nomadic start and possibly remake of religions? I had thought of perhaps a simple system representing subsistence patterns through yields for example...like fish, berries, wood,...instead of food, hammer, gold. And I had thought about a way of calculating spirituality through a commerce.

 

[johny smith]

Was looking around for possible north america examples for civs. Anyway I thought maybe someone would find the art interesting to perhaps use for symbols


Inuit

Spoiler :

Pacific Northwest

Spoiler :

Southwest

Spoiler :

Southeast Moundbuilders

Spoiler :

Northeast Moundbuilders

Spoiler :

Iroquois

Spoiler :

 

[Thunderbrd]

Has anyone ever brought up the idea of adding commerces or yields? I am curious as to how it pertains to the nomadic start and possibly remake of religions? I had thought of perhaps a simple system representing subsistence patterns through yields for example...like fish, berries, wood,...instead of food, hammer, gold. And I had thought about a way of calculating spirituality through a commerce.

The Nomadic Start demo does something like that with our Dynamic Property system. Adds new 'yields' so to speak, though the yields are properties rather than actual yields as the dll defines them.

This is one place where I may be on the fence somewhat as to whether I share design agreement or not but so far as I can tell it seems to be a decent method.

 

[johny smith]

Thanks. I was curious if if yields had be done at all. I'll have to look at.

If I would start on creating more North American groups.... Added homelands as I listed above with religions to match them... would anyone actually even try it for a test?

 

[johny smith]

Just uploading some images

 

[johny smith]

contin

 

[johny smith]

Think that is the last. I thought these might be useful for reference.

There is an image of example shelters that could help later on art with the buildings perhaps.

Spoiler :

The larger language families I would suggest should be represented with at least one group.

Spoiler :

The patterns of subsistence I thought would be helpful as well.

Spoiler :

Anyway blablabla more of the same from me. None this probably matters.

 

[strategyonly]

That larger families one i really need (for scenario's), i was going to set up a USA map with as many Tribes as i could find, but that was 2 years ago, and lost track of doing other stuff, HUH where am i, what was i sayin' jj

 

[Thunderbrd]

Some very interesting information in those images...

Added homelands as I listed above with religions to match them... would anyone actually even try it for a test?

Could you elaborate more?

 

[johny smith]

Some very interesting information in those images...

Could you elaborate more?

I mean if I go ahead and try to expand homeland regions to 16 from list I gave above...and added rapture non spreading religions (and adjust to the 16 to match) from the start that you get after selecting your native culture.....am I just stepping on people's feet or would it be considered useful at all?

 

[Thunderbrd]

If you do it as a module, we can test it against our own project designs.

This is Hydro's territory where the cultural homeland regions are concerned, and DH's territory where the religions are concerned.

My opinion?

If we are starting a game with the nomadic start in play, we should start with the first step on that chart you posted there that then spreads out into the 16 you're talking about. Put almost all starting nomadic units on nearly the same spot and have them all wander out from there.

We regionalize our maps for culture spawns so its conceivable that we could make it so that after spending a certain amount of time in a given 'region', we can assign the regional (of the 16) culture to the tribe after it has spent enough time in a given region and a certain amount of time has passed at which time the game checks where the unit has been throughout the last 10 turns or so and assigns the region's culture base to that tribe.

Alternatively, on a normal game, the code could do the same directly to the first city based on the type of region the first city was established in. Perhaps that would be the trick all in all... make this regional check as soon as the first city is founded. At least as one method to assign the underlying culture family. It would be good to be able to assign it to a traveling tribe that has reached a certain point in time but hasn't yet decided it wants to settle down yet. So in a Nomadic Start game it could just be after a particular amount of turns has passed that the game decides to evaluate - or it could be a player choice, a mission they select when they've earned enough 'nomadic culture' so to speak. Either way its either established by the time they build a city or it establishes when they build their first city.

That'd be how I'd want to run that. And I like those 16 divisions personally. Good palette to start from imo. H, what do you think?

 

[Hydromancerx]

@johny smith

While I have many books about anthropology and cultures, one of the best ones I have found is called "Through Indian Eyes: The Untold Story of Native American Peoples". It has some really awesome maps and stuff about each region of North America. It also has lots of pictures and diagrams of things. Which is one reason I love the book.

EDIT: In fact one of the more interesting maps was Ancient Native trade routes in the Southwest as Mexico. Such as one leading to my home in southern California for sea shells, then east to Chaco Canyon and as far south as Tenochtitlan!

What's even more amazing is that the trade routes keep going to other regions of the map. And they did not even have the wheel! What's neat is the 5 top trade goods since they were limited by region; Shells (from the west coast), Turquoise (from the southwest), Salt (from the salt lakes), Buffalo Hides (from the great plains) and Parrot Feathers (from Central America).

I wish we had Parrots and Turquoise as a resource.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The wheel make trade difficult. If you have four wagons you can expect to spend 2 days a week fixing them, and that is on roads. At least that is according to "The Wheelwrights ????" A book written by the son of a wheelwright, his dad saw that there would be no need for their trade now that cars were around. Wagons are mostly for local trade, boats or caravans (pack animals) for long distances.

 

[johny smith]

@Hydro

It is good someone has done parrots and turquoise. I know one import one off the top of my head was green Obsidian. Well anyway I'm reading Mesoamerica stuff at the moment.

The book looks nice for the drawings from what I saw in google books. I putting this up here to try an iron out early people in North America before contact.

Anyway I hope I could come up with at least 3 from the west and 3 from the east that have enough difference to make it interesting not clustered in one spot. I could expand on some of the religions as well for various regions each they are spread out more. For example I believe the Guardian Spirit Complex is needed for the Northwest. I could apply the same for various regions just depends on how far it should go.

Edit: Actually Cedar is another very important resource for the Northwest. Cedar was used to make nearly everything in the Northwest. Anyway I could make a list of resources and see what people think.

So I am stuck at what to do. Should I work on art sets and expand on the amount homeland areas to 16? I feel I am the one who make units that show differences between cultures from west and east North America as well different from Mesoamerica and South America.

Edit:There was a wheel in Mesoamerica, but used just for toys because no draft animals.