johny smith's ideas/suggestions

[Hydromancerx]

The wheel make trade difficult. If you have four wagons you can expect to spend 2 days a week fixing them, and that is on roads. At least that is according to "The Wheelwrights ????" A book written by the son of a wheelwright, his dad saw that there would be no need for their trade now that cars were around. Wagons are mostly for local trade, boats or caravans (pack animals) for long distances.

Well I don't think they had pack animals either unless they used dogs. Horses and Camels were extinct in North America until Europeans brought them. And Llamas were only used in South America.

Its too bad Mammoths went extinct too, it would have been awesome to have Native American cultures using domesticated mammoths as pack animals.

@Hydro

Edit:There was a wheel in Mesoamerica, but used just for toys because no draft animals.

Wow that's awesome! I never knew. All I have seen in pictures are people with pack on their heads or back or pulled by a Travois.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Perhaps the lack of pack and mount animals and thus the need for the use of roads was what enabled the Native Americans to continue to feel as if the land were to be treated sacredly, which led to a reduction in the will to dig and mine and take from the earth for their needs, particularly given that none of that heavy work would be aided by animals, which in turn led to overall reduced industry and as a result, a general apathy towards technological progress.

Thus, perhaps it was the lack of domesticated pack and mount animals that led to the tribes being unable to match the technological superiority of the European invaders they faced during the Colonization era. I've always wondered what the most critical missing piece was for them.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@TB

However if you look at say the Aztecs they at their peak were doing heavy mining, deforestation and pollution the environment. Their cities were HUGE and built impressive monuments that still can be seen today. Yet they did not have any large pack animals either. The movie Apocalypto comes to mind (note I think they were Mayan in that movie).

 

[Thunderbrd]

They were also extremely violent and religiously driven to conquer. This aggression was an unusual factor in the Native American scene, shared only by some few mesoamerican tribes such as the Mayans.

Sitchin makes a very interesting case that the Biblical Caine, the 3rd man, who killed his brother Able and was exiled to live among the 'others', may have been the founder of Tenochtitlan (or at least its oldest incarnation.) His city was named Enoch... he points out the comparison between Enoch->T'Enoch'titlan. The story would be somewhat fitting and would suggest the Aztecs may have had an unusual Hebrew descendancy among the Native Americans.

Also note that the Aztecs were a bit unusual in that they DID have help from a domesticated animal - humans. They were some of the few native tribes to utilize slave labor to the fullest no?

 

[Praetyre]

I had no idea you were Mormon, Thunderbrd. Also, that toy deer looks like Mickey Mouse in a gimp suit.

Getting somewhat back on topic, is JS an advocate of the genetic or linguistic approach to cultural categorization? I'm not quite clear on his position here.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Also note that the Aztecs were a bit unusual in that they DID have help from a domesticated animal - humans. They were some of the few native tribes to utilize slave labor to the fullest no?

Well yes slavery and prisoners of war when used in that way can be a substitute for animal labor.

As for your other comments about Sitchin, I am going to leave that for Coast to Coast.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Not Mormon. Is that something they say is it?

 

[Praetyre]

I'll admit, my experience of Mormonism is limited to a few dialogues with a Pacific Islander believer in high school, a cursory skim of parts of the Book of Mormon and a single education video, but I seem to recall them believing Moses and the Israelities travelled to the Americas and converted both the US/Canada natives (there's got to be a unifying term for those nomadic, neolithic peoples) and the Mesoamericans to paleo-Mormonism. Considering this, Enoch founding Tenochtitlan 3000 years early wouldn't be out of place.

Don't get me wrong though, Islam has some pretty weird stuff as well, like Jesus being instantly raptured up into Heaven by Allah and Judas being put on the cross thanks to some epic level illusions. But that's getting off topic.

 

[johny smith]

Um, I am for the geographical regional culture areas for categorization.

The argument about colonization usually starts with limited information. The Aztecs were exaggerated by the Spanish to make it proper for them to convert them. Especially since the Spanish inquisition was going on. Anyway Maya held off against the Spanish much longer than the Aztecs....anyway a lot of stuff that I think is missing in the discussion that usually gets pasted over.

And many tribes had slaves. There was different treatment of slaves in tribes of course. Pacific Northwest had slaves. For example Chief Seattle had slaves. Thunderbird I assume you know the Mormon moundbuilder story as well by Joseph. I am not here to tell anyone their religion is wrong or their beliefs wrong because there is no real truth. But when you actually see what is made by the people you can usually find a link if their is a heavy influence. Nothing is found. The Aztec finding a bird on a cactus eating a snake is strange though, and of course was probably made up after the fact.

In fact to show an example the Maya held of the Spanish longer and an in Lamanai for example burnt a church in revolt, and left a crocodile statue (name of the city means underwater crocodile). Anyway that is how welcoming they were to the new religion at the time.
http://www.gsvdl.net/archeology/lamanai/church.shtml

Anyway the story Quetzalcoatl being white has got out of hand as well. It is guessed to start with the Toltec. And White represents..North in Mayan Glyphs (Black-East, Red-West, Yellow-South, Green Center). It assumed from accounts some Hippie from the Toltecs preaching peace not sacrifice man was exiled, and his return was how the story got twisted. Anyway I was about to give a rant about all of the people who willingly falsify the facts, but there is no point of doing this. Wal-mart stores on top of these areas just to show you how important it is to those in power.

"No, the Conquistadors Are Not Back. It's Just Wal-Mart"
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/28/international/americas/28mexico.html?_r=0

The Tarascans are important civilization for example that held the Aztecs back. The Aztecs never broke through. They actually had metallurgy. (Tech from northwest South America)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarascan_state

This is an axe found below.

Debates are now why did they not kick the Aztecs butt. It seems Obsidian was durable enough and lack of large deposits of mineral resources never pushed them on that front.

Possible draft animal differences...Maize (corn) you do not need to till the grown deep so less need of draft animals. One of the original reasons for the ox was for fields in the old world for example, and the horse came after the idea of animals to do field work.

Btw oh the dog was commonly eaten in region. The Chihuahua dog could be consider like a chicken food resource.

Anyway there is ton of info. I would rather talk about how to put this into the game versus speculation.

These below are not anything that I am locking on stone. Just some method to guide myself to diversify the areas so as to better represent the regions. Anyway if how I am looking is wrong tell me to stop.

West NA
--------West Arctic and Subarctic
--------Pacific NW, Plateau. Northwest Plains Area
--------California, SW, Basin
East NA
--------East Arctic and Subarctic
--------Northeast and Northeast Plains Area
--------Southeast and Southeast Plains Area
Mesoamerica
--------West Mesoamerican (Tarascan for example)
--------Central Mesoamerica (Teotihuacan...Aztecs..Toltec
--------East (Mayan states...Olmec)

So anyway I want to have for the Americas 4 homeland cultures...West NA, East NA, Meso, South America....with that I would like to actually see the stuff like religions as full as the middle east for example. I am wanting to equalize the beginning a little more. After that there is plenty of unique combinations that can be created from dynamic civs.

That means it is more important for me to balance regional cultures than anything else. If there was a idea of some genetic or linguistic spread than we should include cultures that were not part of the dominant Kurgan hypothesis. For example Old Europe before the migration of the Indo-Europeans into Europe. Culture does not have a direct correlation to language, but of course you can see words from the past...this could be borrowed words from other languages..and etc. There is plenty of cases where the two do not coincide. Genetics has nothing at all do with culture unless we are talking about common genetic deficiencies perhaps and dietary patterns to fix common things being part of a culture. For example lactose intolerance.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'll admit, my experience of Mormonism is limited to a few dialogues with a Pacific Islander believer in high school, a cursory skim of parts of the Book of Mormon and a single education video, but I seem to recall them believing Moses and the Israelities travelled to the Americas and converted both the US/Canada natives (there's got to be a unifying term for those nomadic, neolithic peoples) and the Mesoamericans to paleo-Mormonism. Considering this, Enoch founding Tenochtitlan 3000 years early wouldn't be out of place.

Don't get me wrong though, Islam has some pretty weird stuff as well, like Jesus being instantly raptured up into Heaven by Allah and Judas being put on the cross thanks to some epic level illusions. But that's getting off topic.

Wow... um... not related to what I stated.

In the bible, Caine kills his brother (and was alive somewhere around 6000 BC perhaps.) He was outcast for it and wandered the Earth. He took a wife among the 'others', so we know that the line beginning with Adam and Eve is NOT to be considered the first HUMANS but rather, as the Sumerians suggest, the first of Jehova's people.

Jehova/Enlil was always somewhat against the breeding of men but after thousands and thousands of years of them being around (his brother Enki was the actual creator of man) he grew a bit envious of his brother's human assistants and began to admire the 'Black Headed Men' to the point that he wanted one for himself - thus we have the opening of the Sumerian version of the Genesis tale of the Garden of Eden. Adam was an A.DAM in the Sumerian tale, which meant something like primitive worker. Of course, the rivalry between Enki and Enlil plays out heavily here in the Sumerian version as well where Enki (always depicted as 'the Serpent) sneaks into the Garden of Eden to convince the A.DAM and his partner to break the rule Enlil set for them against procreation. In the Sumerian version, Enki was always pro-human empowerment and anti-Enlil's authority - particularly since he was the first to arrive and colonize the Earth and his command was (somewhat unfairly) taken out from under him by his brother Enlil.

So where the Bible picks up the story and elaborates is to go on to explain what happens between Adam's first two sons, Caine and Abel and as we all know, Caine kills his brother in a jealous rage. Caine was apparently a farmer and Abel a herder and both were asked to give sacrifice to the Lord God (Enlil/Jehovah) and when Abel's sacrifice was deemed more pleasing by the meat loving Enlil/Jehovah (symbolically known for the Bull in Sumerian times and if you've ever read Deuteronomy it's very clear on how to cook for the gods - they loved their meat!) Caine kinda lost his head and took his brother out. Once it was discovered what was done, Caine was cast out.

After Caine's exile, he wandered the Earth far and wide. At this time in Earth's history, the land bridge would've been alive and well and there was a strong indication in the Bible that he'd traveled basically as far as a human could travel from his origin point which would've been somewhere in the Fertile Crescent of the Middle East. Mind you this was many years pre-flood too.

After settling down, he raised a family, it goes on to list his sons as builders and metal workers and they founded the great and powerful city Enoch, which no scientist has been able to identify a possible site for. (Enoch is a name given to a person in the bible later but is not to be confused with the city which got very little to no further comment.) Caine, however, was cursed... and his family line was cursed... to bear the mark of his 'crime'. He and all his sons would wear this mark for all to see. Many have suggested this curse was the inability to grow facial hair, a prevalent genetic anomoly among many Native American men.

Tenochtitlan as we know it from any documentation today is not that old, no. But it still speaks of a culture that was a bit more 'advanced' than its neighbors and somehow very related to the Mesopotamian and Egyptian influences in their architecture and belief systems. It is not inconceivable that Caine's early influence on this region was maintained from generation to generation to eventually become the Tenochtitlan that was found by the Spanish Conquistadors.

Mind... this is not at all stating that ANY other Hebrew descendants ever had anything to do with the New World.

 

[johny smith]

Tenochtitlan as we know it from any documentation today is not that old, no. But it still speaks of a culture that was a bit more 'advanced' than its neighbors and somehow very related to the Mesopotamian and Egyptian influences in their architecture and belief systems. It is not inconceivable that Caine's early influence on this region was maintained from generation to generation to eventually become the Tenochtitlan that was found by the Spanish Conquistadors.

There is nothing that links them to Mesopotamian and Egyptian. That is a way over generalization to think that the architecture and belief systems are linked. There are predecessors that can be seen in Mayan, Olmec,Teotihuacan, Toltec, and others within the triple alliance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec_Triple_Alliance

Just because a pyramid was used does not mean it is something significant for architecture. It is common shape found in many areas. The belief system of Judaism barely begins by the time of similar Mesoamerican beliefs in Olmec sites. Anyway I do not know what you are referring to that persuades you to believe this.

No the Aztecs were not more advanced. In fact there written language was not as large as Mayan glyphs, they did not have metallurgy as the Tarascans. They were not successful in conquering the Tarascans, and the Maya states were out of their grasp. Look at what I posted. Anyway they fell so quickly because of the groups they enslaved helped the Spanish conquer them. Anyway I guess it does not matter what I have studied on this.

I have a sore spot for the belief that the lost tribes built the mounds in the eastern US because it was used to declare that Native Tribes had no right to the land. Since they conquered the "white" Israelites therefore it was proper for the Anglo-Saxons to retake their "white" lands. Believe what you want, but realize this just opens to door to say they are not different. Then we get Wal-marts because who cares about these peoples since they offer nothing new.

Sorry I am not getting any response on if what I propose is a good idea or bad, but just debate over armchair readings. Nothing that has to do with the development of the regions.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I admit that my eyes glaze over whenever I see stuff on the Americas. I do try and read the Archeology articles on them but they are not my main area of interest, although a few recent ones have been fascinating. The one on the pottery needed and ritual behind making a chocolate drink was excellent.

On nomads starting in the same space, I am not sure the AI will handle this well. The tendency in civ is to settle as close to another nation as soon as possible to cut off their ability to expand and claim lands.

 

[johny smith]

I admit that my eyes glaze over whenever I see stuff on the Americas. I do try and read the Archeology articles on them but they are not my main area of interest, although a few recent ones have been fascinating. The one on the pottery needed and ritual behind making a chocolate drink was excellent.

On nomads starting in the same space, I am not sure the AI will handle this well. The tendency in civ is to settle as close to another nation as soon as possible to cut off their ability to expand and claim lands.

I am not thinking these are in the Nomadic start. These are at the end of the Nomadic start. Settlement would be after the nomadic start. The nomadic start would just be to define your homeland. You do not even have to have the explanation process for nomadic starts to me. Just say you are one of these 16 (or however many would be best) culture regions to begin with would be fine. So you can figure out what civ you are in the region after the nomadic start eras from within the homeland you have upon the end of the nomadic times. That could be by dynamic civs, techs, events, traits, or whatever.

 

[johny smith]

I guess after skimming over the stuff again...I need to state some basic history.

The Mayan collapse was not a collapse of everything. They moved from the south to the north in the Yucatan peninsula. The periods are found here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_chronology

Common Worldtree belief.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_world_tree

The people were made from maize (corn) in Maya mythology, and yes all of those symbols along the sides were glyphs from a writing system.

The Maya set the standard for classic versus post-classic. The end of the classic being before a significant collapse in the southeast Mexico and north Central America.

The Olmec are the grandma or grandaddy example of the region (or from what has been found so far). The Olmec have the oldest written language, but the Mayan written language was a very large body.

The importance of the highland trade with the lowlands built up a complex between the region. There were many Maya City-States similar to Greece. The Aztecs migrated in and borrowed many ideas in their unique way, and became a strong military power.

 

[Hydromancerx]

The Aztec finding a bird on a cactus eating a snake is strange though, and of course was probably made up after the fact.

Hey did you know that the "Eagle and Snake" was originally a Northern Crested Caracara in the Mendoza Codex and not a Golden Eagle like the Mexican Flag currently portray it as? I think the Caracara looks better. They should have kept it.

 

[johny smith]

Here is some more ideas I had. Basically mimic the society levels by allowing one village to bands with no major fortification starting around the time of the Mesolithic. Chiefdoms with fortifications and religious center around the Neolithic in a larger village. States somewhere around Copper or Bronze times with cities.

It would be nice to have a maintenance fee or something to maintain the cities to represent a larger cost for larger cities. The larger the city of course the increase in allowed amount of buildings. I know it will never happen.

I would expect that places that never made it to a "supposed" level could then go one on to whatever "whatif" fashion. For example the Moundbuilders are thought to have reached chiefdom and looked to have some characteristics of a state. They could form states or whatever. Some rank beyond state could be used for later on even if fits C2C.

I thought this might help map out somewhat similar periods, but of course it is not really accurate. Anyway this is what I consider as prehistorical periods. I would prefer to have it split up so manner that it makes sense, but I know old habits are hard to kill.

Link for explaining some of the typology.
http://www.cabrillo.edu/~crsmith/sociopolit_org.html

Typology North America Mesoamerica and South America Middle East, Europe, India, and Africa Egypt China Japan Korea Oceania Australia
Band Early Paleoindian Early Paleoindian Paleolthic Paleolithic Paleolithic Paleolithic Paleolithic Pre-Contact 60,000 BP
Tribe Late Paleoindian Late Paleoindian Mesolithic Mesolithic Mesolithic Mesolithic Mesolithic Pre-Contact 5,000 BP
Chiefdom Archaic Archaic Neolithic Neolithic Neolithic Early Jomon Early Jeulmun Archaic
State Postarchaic Preclassic Copper Predynastic Xia Middle Jomon Late Jeulmun Classic
Classic Bronze Protodynastic Shang Final Jomon Mumun
PostClassic Iron Third Intermediate Zhou Yayoi Protohistoric

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

We do have a minimum population limit on buildings but that is based on the population of the city not the nation. It may be able to extend the concept. It would probably even fix the things I dislike most about the minimum population requirements. There are many examples of major constructions happening in a backwater town just because it is where the Emperor was born.

IIRC We also have the ability to have the cost of maintenance of a building scale with city population. Currently it is linear. It would be easy to "auto build" a building that was then used for this maintenance.

Edit just to see if I am on the right track with the words in your table

The main problem with having a dynamic religion system are the game optionsLimited Religion and Choose Religion, and the Leader Favorite Religion. These would need to change as would the religions themselves if we want dynamic and evolving religions.

Your suggeston for a break up of the religions almost works for me. One problem is that some hunter and gatherer groups have built man made National sacred site at a seasonal meeting place of the tribes. After discoveries in Scotland and the Middle East, Stonehenge is starting to look like a poor cousin to such monuments.

Shamans - I assume this is a loose organisation of the keepers of knowledge - geneaology, where to be when and how to get there. So they are links to the future and past. There may have sacred sites which are natural rather than man made. One shaman per camp, no organisation between camps. The shaman takes an apprentice and passes on the knowledge that way. (We would need to rethink the names of many of the current buildings to use this.)

Religious Elders and Calendrical Events (change to Seasonal or move Calendar tech or get a new tech that covers this) - in this case the Religious Elders also ensure some similarity or religion between settlements. Local spirits/gods and natural sacred sites for the village.

 

[johny smith]

@ Dancing Hoskuld

I am agreeing with your post. Early religion just the sharing knowledge passed down through a shaman would be what I would expect in a camp. The spiritual sites though could be natural or built. The mounds for example in the Eastern US are built sites that were a spiritual meeting place.

Poverty Point makes Stonehenge look small.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_Point

Poverty Point's builders were hunters and gathers, or at least it seems at this point that the majority of artifacts do not show agriculture at the beginning. They were hunter and gathers and Poverty Point is after other previous sites. They even aligned the sites together in a triangle pattern with equal measurements (well what the recent accepted theory is). They all were aligned to seasonal occasions like solstice..etc.

The subsistence patterns (hunter/gather, pastoral, horticulture, agriculture) does not correlate to the level of society typology. For example Pacific Northwest Coast tribes were always hunters and gathers yet were part of complex Chiefdoms.

Edit: Just sidenote so that I do not confuse. Moundbuilders cover over a 5,000 year period in the Eastern US. At least 3500 BC to contact by the Spanish explorer De Soto in 1539. So the sites evolved to become more and more elaborate, and agriculture was taken up later by some groups to provide for chiefdoms.

Here is an older site.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watson_Brake

 

[Thunderbrd]

The main problem with having a dynamic religion system are the game optionsLimited Religion and Choose Religion

This would be easily bypassed by setting up a game option for the more dynamic religion system. With the new incompatibility method we could simply make that option declare the other two incompatible - thus, if its selected, the other two would be automatically deselected if they are somehow set to on at the game start.

I'd like to eventually set up a structure for similar interactions between game options and modder options as well - would not be impossible to do.

 

[johny smith]

I thought this might be interesting.

http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/origins/denisova_hominin.php

Since it has been shown that Homo Sapien Sapien did interbreed with Homo Sapien Neanderthalis, and now another one has been found Homo Sapien Denisova (not sure if this the correct name yet).

Anyway if wanting to start early in the game, I could suggest the two branches could be found wandering in their geographical locations and you could have them join your group occasionally.

The case of the genetic usefulness to humans was more of a tolerance to regional diseases. The two groups accumulated useful adaptions after being separate for thousands of years. Other hominids could roam around, but I assume they would not of interbred with the population. For example Homo Erectus.

Or even perhaps you could play as one of the other hominids and you develop a culture just as if you were Homo Sapien Sapien. The only way I see this happening to make any real sense would be that you select your subspecies to begin with then you are placed at the possible locations in the beginning. Africa (Sapiens), Europe (Neanderthals), or Asia (Denisova).

By the time you reach the beginning of the last ice age you would be given a homeland based on where you are at on the world map. So you could be Homo Sapien Neanderthalis and have say a South Europe Homeland. If this by chance makes any sense let me know.