Jordan Peterson

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Your assumption is that I have the same goals in my discourse about Jordan as you would. In light of the fact that that assumption is false, you should pay attention to my feedback, which is that when you say these kinds of things it simply makes me feel angry and condescended to. You should, uh, "improve your crafting."

We make each other angry when we talk to each other. But we're on the same side, mostly. But no, I am not making the assumption that we have the same goals. I am saying that your goals (as I can perceive them) are wrong. We live in a world of social media, where it takes someone three clicks to silence your signal forever. You clearly have insights into the topic, and are obviously intending to be a counter to the growth of fascism. It's okay to yell into the echo chamber, but the yelling has to be accurate and useful. Every time you further memes (in the technical sense) that get propagated to the attention of the non-partisans, we then have to worry whether those memes are perceived as false or true by your downstream audience and what that does to the long-direction of the conversation.

It's true I have to improve my crafting with you. Keep in mind that talking to a partisan young man is hard. They tend to really hold strong opinions, it's the nature of the way the brain works. But if my words 'simply make you angry', then I guess I am. We can stop discussing the topic.
 
As the quote says
Past experience should teach us that fascism must be stopped before it takes hold again of too many minds

I disagree with that quote. Fascism always has a hold on lots of minds. It's grip doesn't ease, and it doesn't reach out and grab people. Hitler, while a great orator, did not plant the seed of fascism in innocent minds and have it sprout and flourish. As with Trump, the man himself isn't the problem, the fact that the man was brought to power by the people is the problem.

There is no "before it takes hold" when it can be stopped, as dominance behavior is rooted deep in the mammalian brain of instincts and self interest. What has to be done is that the consequences of fascism must always be piled high on the scales, for both individuals and nations. A fascist cowering in his basement isn't a good thing, but isn't the problem that a fascist carrying a torch and marching with his fellows presents. A nation with a contingent of fascists among their citizens isn't a good thing, but it is when one of them slips in and gets themselves elected that the feces hits the fan.
 
His summary of the bill was rather incorrect, so the better question would be whether he's changed his criticism of it when exposed to new information.

I think his criticism of the bill did evolve over time, at least from the two points of reference that I have, which is his initial YouTube video to his testimony as an expert witness in the senate hearing.

I watched part of the senate hearing last night and his main point was that bill C-16, which added gender identity and expression to both the list of prohibited grounds of discriminations and the criminal code, but it didn't bother define what exactly gender expression and gender identity were. The claim he made is that the Federal DoJ thus will use the Human Rights Tribunals for these definitions, I have not seen this claim disputed, and I believe there are several examples historically that illustrate this is indeed the case. Upon consulting the Ontario Human Rights Code, you will find the following:

Gender identity is each person’s internal and individual experience of gender. It is their sense of being a woman, a man, both, neither, or anywhere along the gender spectrum. A person’s gender identity may be the same as or different from their birth-assigned sex. Gender identity is fundamentally different from a person’s sexual orientation.

Gender expression is how a person publicly presents their gender. This can include behaviour and outward appearance such as dress, hair, make-up, body language and voice. A person’s chosen name and pronoun are also common ways of expressing gender.

Discrimination happens when a person experiences negative treatment or impact, intentional or not, because of their gender identity or gender expression. It can be direct and obvious or subtle and hidden, but harmful just the same. It can also happen on a bigger systemic level such as organizational rules or policies that look neutral but end up excluding trans people. Friends, family or others who face discrimination because of their association with a trans person are also protected.


First of all, I find the definition of Gender Identity to be completely nonsensical. That aside, it is the case that whether intentional or not, if someone experiences negative impact because of their gender identity, this is now part of the criminal code in Canada. One form of negative impact is being unintentionally mis-gendered.

In fact, the Ontario Human Rights commission have an entire section on whether or not it is discrimination to not address people by their pronoun, which the conclusion is likely if done in social areas covered by the code, and cite an example where the Tribunal found the police guilty due to mis-gendering, however it was not clear whether or not this was intentional. So yeah, his interpretation seems to be more or less correct as far as I can tell. The controversial bit is whether you have to specifically use some of the non-traditional pronouns, it is simply not clear if you have to do that. The Ontario Human Rights commission says:

The law is otherwise unsettled as to whether someone can insist on any one gender-neutral pronoun in particular.

Gender-neutral pronouns may not be well known. Some people may not know how to determine what pronoun to use. Others may feel uncomfortable using gender-neutral pronouns. Generally, when in doubt, ask a person how they wish to be addressed. Use “they” if you don’t know which pronoun is preferred.[2] Simply referring to the person by their chosen name is always a respectful approach.

So, it seems like the only way to be safe would be to use them. You should ask and then use whatever they tell you. If you don't know, you can use 'they', but only if you don't know. It's easy to get lost in the details. I generally agree that I find these laws, however well intentioned, to be dangerous and convoluted.
 
That's why i refer to everyone as shklim or shkler.
And if that fails "Hey You" works just fine!
 

So, it seems like the only way to be safe would be to use them. You should ask and then use whatever they tell you. If you don't know, you can use 'they', but only if you don't know. It's easy to get lost in the details. I generally agree that I find these laws, however well intentioned, to be dangerous and convoluted.

This line is hilarious. Yes, you should just ask and then use what they tell you. Why in the world would you not? The only thing wrong with a law requiring that is that such a law should never be required, and the people who feel like the law forcing them to not be sphincters is 'dangerous' should find a mirror and take a good look at themselves.
 
Uh...in what way?

I don't know what it means to be both a man and a women. I also don't understand how gender can be a spectrum but that you can also choose to be not on the spectrum at all.

So like, the way I see it, we group people based on their genitals, and tell them they have to act a certain way. I don't like that and it can be very harmful. We also have inter sex people who have a hard go at life because they don't fit in our two categories, I don't like that either. I just don't think it means anything to be a 'man' other than that you have the xy chromosome.

To me the solution is that we should stop telling people that it means something more to have a penis other than that you have a penis. That is all it means. If you are 6 foot 4, it doesn't mean anything other than that you are 6 foot 4. You don't have to play basketball if you don't want to, you don't even have to be good at it. It doesn't mean anything to have blue eyes other than that you have blue eyes. If you have blue eyes, and you say you feel like you have brown eyes, I don't know what you are talking about. It doesn't feel like anything to have blue eyes. The main reason someone should think that it does mean something else, as far as I can tell, is if society told them that people with blue eyes should be a certain way, or like certain things. The point is, you should be able to act any way you want, you can like whatever you want.

I simply can't get behind definitions that don't compute in my brain. If I don't know what you are talking about I can't agree with you.

Are you generally opposed to anti-discrimination laws, @Chose? Or is it just when it's related to gender?

I don't know. I don't think I have a problem with them generally, or even related to gender. I just don't like a law protecting something that doesn't really make much sense to me, and I know doesn't make sense to a large percentage of the population.

This line is hilarious. Yes, you should just ask and then use what they tell you. Why in the world would you not? The only thing wrong with a law requiring that is that such a law should never be required, and the people who feel like the law forcing them to not be sphincters is 'dangerous' should find a mirror and take a good look at themselves.

Yeah, I mean, I think we would both agree there are lots of things people 'should' do that we shouldn't have the force of the law behind, right?
 
This line is hilarious. Yes, you should just ask and then use what they tell you. Why in the world would you not? The only thing wrong with a law requiring that is that such a law should never be required, and the people who feel like the law forcing them to not be sphincters is 'dangerous' should find a mirror and take a good look at themselves.

While the request (to use the new pronouns) is logical in an informal setting, surely in a formal setting (not just uni) it can create issues. Not least due to how unlikely it is to be carried out without omission, no?
I think it is fine to ask that anyone can use those pronouns if they want to, (eg also in uni papers), but not make it mandatory.

Which is why imo Peterson being a douche, and his sudden rise to prominence, is also not helping examine the issue. The guy isn't something worth listening to (imo), but in a binary answer on anything, one can agree (albeit not for the same reasons).
 
Yeah, I mean, I think we would both agree there are lots of things people 'should' do that we shouldn't have the force of the law behind, right?

No doubt. But since we outlawed the correction of blatantly antisocial behaviors by the more appropriate peer applied beatings this sort of thing is a consequence. I'd prefer the good old days when someone obviously and deliberately being a jerk risked getting their ass whooped on the spot myself, but it's not my call.
 
While the request (to use the new pronouns) is logical in an informal setting, surely in a formal setting (not just uni) it can create issues. Not least due to how unlikely it is to be carried out without omission, no?
I think it is fine to ask that anyone can use those pronouns if they want to, (eg also in uni papers), but not make it mandatory.

Which is why imo Peterson being a douche, and his sudden rise to prominence, is also not helping examine the issue. The guy isn't something worth listening to (imo), but in a binary answer on anything, one can agree (albeit not for the same reasons).

Most schools have conduct rules. What makes misgendering someone unbecoming of being included in such a concept?
 
Most schools have conduct rules. What makes misgendering someone unbecoming of being included in such a concept?

In a practical manner, due to the pronouns being so new and (afaik) not entirely set either, it can create issues if it is tied to law. Involuntary mistakes included, but also lack of awareness by some in the faculty. Isn't this realistic?
 
No doubt. But since we outlawed the correction of blatantly antisocial behaviors by the more appropriate peer applied beatings this sort of thing is a consequence. I'd prefer the good old days when someone obviously and deliberately being a jerk risked getting their ass whooped on the spot myself, but it's not my call.

If this was the case, I suspect you would find yourself getting an ass whooping quite regularly.
 
In a practical manner, due to the pronouns being so new and (afaik) not entirely set either, it can create issues if it is tied to law. Involuntary mistakes included, but also lack of awareness by some in the faculty. Isn't this realistic?

In a general sense, maybe. But as applied to "I told you my preference and you blatantly ignored the request" it doesn't seem to hold much water. It's like if I started calling you "Kyr-kyr," you didn't like it, and when you asked me not to do it I replied "Okay Kyr-kyr, whatever you want." I would only say something like that if I was okay with getting a sock in the head, because that's what I would deserve.
 
In a general sense, maybe. But as applied to "I told you my preference and you blatantly ignored the request" it doesn't seem to hold much water. It's like if I started calling you "Kyr-kyr," you didn't like it, and when you asked me not to do it I replied "Okay Kyr-kyr, whatever you want." I would only say something like that if I was okay with getting a sock in the head, because that's what I would deserve.

Indeed. I know from experience that i take offense when people don't use my full title, Kyriakos A', King of Kings, King to those who are Kings, and vice-regent of God on Earth. ^^
 
If this was the case, I suspect you would find yourself getting an ass whooping quite regularly.

Is that right? Please point out where I have done something out of the blue egregious, as what we are talking about here. Now, when sniveling internet trolls start talking about whooping ass I am notoriously quick to be rude to them, so please don't refer to situations like that in support of this false accusation.
 
So like, the way I see it, we group people based on their genitals, and tell them they have to act a certain way. I don't like that and it can be very harmful. We also have inter sex people who have a hard go at life because they don't fit in our two categories, I don't like that either. I just don't think it means anything to be a 'man' other than that you have the xy chromosome.

I see a contradiction between the two bolded statements there. Unless the second one is a normative statement, ie, how you think things should. Because as your first bolded statement says clearly, you do understand how there is a component to the definition of "man" that doesn't involve the xy chromosome.

To me the solution is that we should stop telling people that it means something more to have a penis other than that you have a penis. That is all it means. If you are 6 foot 4, it doesn't mean anything other than that you are 6 foot 4. You don't have to play basketball if you don't want to, you don't even have to be good at it. It doesn't mean anything to have blue eyes other than that you have blue eyes. If you have blue eyes, and you say you feel like you have brown eyes, I don't know what you are talking about. It doesn't feel like anything to have blue eyes. The main reason someone should think that it does mean something else, as far as I can tell, is if society told them that people with blue eyes should be a certain way, or like certain things. The point is, you should be able to act any way you want, you can like whatever you want.

I don't have anything to add except that this is exactly what trans-inclusive feminism wants to do. And this bill (that Peterson has misrepresented in ways calculated to be attractive to the alt-right) is, in my judgment, a step on the path toward this goal.

I don't know. I don't think I have a problem with them generally, or even related to gender. I just don't like a law protecting something that doesn't really make much sense to me, and I know doesn't make sense to a large percentage of the population.

See, I find this line of reasoning to be very problematic. I don't think I really understand what it's like or what it means to be non-binary either, but if you genuinely do think that, as you put, "you should be able to act in any way you want, you can like whatever you want," then it seems a contradiction for you to oppose legal protections for nonbinary people on the basis of their gender identity/expression, simply because you can't wrap your head around what it means. I will add that there are plenty of resources available online that explain this stuff. There are even places where you can (respectfully) ask nonbinary people themselves some of these questions, though that may require some time investment to earn trust.
 
Is that right? Please point out where I have done something out of the blue egregious, as what we are talking about here. Now, when sniveling internet trolls start talking about whooping ass I am notoriously quick to be rude to them, so please don't refer to situations like that in support of this false accusation.

It was joke... lighten up a bit. I assumed you were joking too, or are you actually condoning violence?
 
It was joke... lighten up a bit. I assumed you were joking too, or are you actually condoning violence?

In the context of my last post, yes. I see no reason why people who are knowingly and intentionally rude should not have their actions stopped, abruptly.
 
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