Jordan Peterson

[inthesomeday]

I think the default allowance of leeway to the biological explanation but the demand of uneven evidence from the cultural evidence is especially ridiculous here because we’re discussing a phenomenon in culture itself.

And anyway what people study in college or even the profession they end up in really hasn’t got much to do with personal interest, sadly, even when we ignore the fact that personal interest probably hasn’t got much to do with biology. People’s ultimate careers are far more influenced by their environments and the social pressure in their upbringing than what they want to do.

 

[Yeekim]

I want you to know that I was not angrily or otherwise calling you sexist. I'm pretty sure I was just paraphrasing your words from an earlier discussion we had on this subject back at you.

Good to know it's just me then.

Interesting that all these surveys somehow managed to gather this information on newborn babies with no cultural influence

Previous research suggested that sex differences in personality traits are larger in prosperous, healthy, and egalitarian cultures in which women have more opportunities equal with those of men. In this article, the authors report cross-cultural findings in which this unintuitive result was replicated across samples from 55 nations (N 17,637). On responses to the Big Five Inventory, women reported higher levels of neuroticism, extraversion, agreeableness, and conscientiousness than did men across most nations. These findings converge with previous studies in which different Big Five measures and more limited samples of nations were used. Overall, higher levels of human development—including long and healthy life, equal access to knowledge and education, and economic wealth—were the main nation-level predictors of larger sex differences in personality. Changes in men’s personality traits appeared to be the primary cause of sex difference variation across cultures. It is proposed that heightened levels of sexual dimorphism result from personality traits of men and women being less constrained and more able to naturally diverge in developed nations. In less fortunate social and economic conditions, innate personality differences between men and women may be attenuated.
Link to study.

So the higher a nation's HDI index, the more sexist its culture, yeah? Sounds reasonable. Not.

People’s ultimate careers are far more influenced by their environments and the social pressure in their upbringing than what they want to do.

Now read the abstract above again, slowly. The more generous one's environment, the larger sex differences in personality.

 

[Senethro]

Careful with your correlations and causations there buddy.

 

[Yeekim]

Careful with your correlations and causations there buddy.

Well, research tells us that there is strong correlation between sex differences in personality traits and how developed/ egalitarian a society is. If you disagree with the proposed explanation, you (or @inthesomeday or @Lexicus) are free to offer a different one. I'll be waiting.

 

[Senethro]

The paper uses appropriately cautious and precise language.

 

[Yeekim]

The paper uses appropriately cautious and precise language.

...meaning your only argument/comeback so far is difficult to apply?

"What if the racists and sexists were right all along?" isn't exactly useful or even particularly original input.

There should be no Sacred Cows and all, but....

"What if the racists and sexists were right all along?" isn't exactly useful or even particularly original input.

 

[Senethro]

Meaning the paper's authors are being careful not to overreach and suggest the disbanding of diversity initiatives based on the strength of their research.

 

[Yeekim]

Meaning the paper's authors are being careful not to overreach and suggest the disbanding of diversity initiatives based on the strength of their research.

Firstly, goals of the study were 1) "to replicate the previously observed sex differences in personality traits" and 2) "to provide evidence that could constrain the range of possible explanations for the widening gap between men’s and women’s personality traits in developed and more egalitarian countries". Making any suggestions about "diversity initiatives" was not among them, which is why this observation is irrelevant.

Secondly, I don't recall anyone suggesting "disbanding diversity initiatives". Damore said "I strongly believe in gender and racial diversity, and I think we should strive for more. /.../
I hope it’s clear that I'm not saying that diversity is bad, that Google or society is 100% fair, that we shouldn't try to correct for existing biases, or that minorities have the same experience of those in the majority." and I agree. Apparently this has been immediately dismissed as insincere "concern trolling". I can't vouch for Damore, because I don't know him, but at least I'm being sincere.

If those diversity initiatives are based on premises which run directly contrary to latest science, maybe it would be appropriate to NOT dismiss any attempt to discuss that by crude ad hominems?

 

[Lexicus]

strong correlation between sex differences in personality traits and how developed/ egalitarian a society is.

I think it's ridiculous to attempt to reduce development or egalitarianism to a single numerical measurement.

But in any case I don't think this is really all that surprising. Gendered divisions of labor have historically been something that the aristocracy, the literate classes, could much more readily afford than could the peasantry. I wouldn't be surprised if a similar dynamic is responsible for the correlation above, ie that as countries become richer they can better afford to act out inefficient (from a market perspective) gender roles.

The portrayal of Scandinavia as some sort of utopia where all feminist goals have been achieved is laughable.

Well, research tells us that there is strong correlation between sex differences in personality traits and how developed/ egalitarian a society is. If you disagree with the proposed explanation, you (or @inthesomeday or @Lexicus) are free to offer a different one. I'll be waiting.

Give me fifty infant test subjects and carte blanche and I'll force you to admit the power of culture and environment. Problem is it would be highly unethical.

It's also worth noting for everyone's benefit that "genetic" does not mean "innate, unchangeable, and determined before birth"....

 

[inthesomeday]

So the higher a nation's HDI index, the more sexist its culture, yeah? Sounds reasonable. Not.

How about: western countries tend to enforce western gender roles more than southern and eastern countries.

Big goddamn reach there I know but bear with me.

 

[Lexicus]

How about: western countries tend to enforce western gender roles more than southern and eastern countries.

Big goddamn reach there I know but bear with me.

So...you believe women are in some sense more free in China or India than in the West?

 

[Ryika]

Give me fifty infant test subjects and carte blanche and I'll force you to admit the power of culture and environment. Problem is it would be highly unethical.

Translation: "I have no evidence to justify my beliefs."

 

[Yeekim]

The portrayal of Scandinavia as some sort of utopia where all feminist goals have been achieved is laughable.

No, apparently this utopia has been achieved in Congo and Ethiopia, where those sex differences are smallest.

Give me fifty infant test subjects and carte blanche and I'll force you to admit the power of culture and environment.

I have never denied the power of environment and culture. The above study clearly demonstrates the power of environment and culture. Problem is, when you diminish that power, you find out that biology exists underneath, and that there are differences in biology too. Which shouldn't really be all that much of a surprise. Really, what would it take for you to entertain the idea?

How about: western countries tend to enforce western gender roles more than southern and eastern countries.

Big goddamn reach there I know but bear with me.

Or how about: when you take away environment and social pressure, the sexes are still different. Not a reach by any means.
EDIT: A disclaimer that really shouldn't have to be here - but to attempt and prevent misunderstandings:

"Those differences are small and there’s significant overlap between men and women, so you can’t say anything about an individual given these population level distributions."

 

[Senethro]

Translation: "I have no evidence to justify my beliefs."

Given that we only have direct access to the currently existing subset of contemporary societies, out of all the societies that existed and out of all societies that are possible, we're missing quite a lot of evidence.

I have never denied the power of environment and culture. The above study clearly demonstrates the power of environment and culture. Problem is, when you diminish that power, you find out that biology exists underneath, and that there are differences in biology too. Which shouldn't really be all that much of a surprise. Really, what would it take for you to entertain the idea?

Thats not a problem though. Thats the exact opposite of a problem. If we removed all environmental constraints on people through use of The Ultimate Socialism and discovered that there were real sexual and racial differences then I think we could live with that.

The problem is all the people arguing against the removal of environmental constraints like poverty and sexism.

 

[Yeekim]

Thats not a problem though. Thats the exact opposite of a problem. If we removed all environmental constraints on people through use of The Ultimate Socialism and discovered that there were real sexual and racial differences then I think we could live with that. The problem is all the people arguing against the removal of environmental constraints like poverty and sexism.

And people who view mere existence of differences as proof of sexism are yet another kind of problem.

 

[inthesomeday]

So...you believe women are in some sense more free in China or India than in the West?

Not necessarily, but I think the standards of gender roles are definitely very different.

 

[Ryika]

Given that we only have direct access to the currently existing subset of contemporary societies, out of all the societies that existed and out of all societies that are possible, we're missing quite a lot of evidence.

I completely agree, but that's exactly why we should be careful with the claims we make. Lexicus does not know whether any of the claims he made on the last few pages are true, and he did not actually make a case for his beliefs, he just asserts authority by trying to sell his beliefs as knowledge.

 

[Senethro]

And people who view mere existence of differences as proof of sexism are yet another kind of problem.

Hows that? What harm arises?

 

[Yeekim]

I completely agree, but that's exactly why we should be careful with the claims we make. Lexicus does not know whether any of the claims he made on the last few pages are true, and he did not actually make a case for his beliefs, he just asserts authority by trying to sell his beliefs as knowledge.

To be fair to Lexicus, in post #1399 he describes his belief as, well, "belief".

 

[Lexicus]

Not necessarily, but I think the standards of gender roles are definitely very different.

Based on what evidence?

Hows that? What harm arises?

Men who think women are biologically inclined to be housewives being accused of sexism on the internet, probably. The greatest collective injustice in history.