Fothal, before I start I wanted to say I agree I think this race is too powerful currently and needs some SLIGHT toning down. I just don't necessarily agree with some of your conclusions.
As a side note, some of my conclusions were based on insufficient evidence. I was probably a bit too harsh in some areas.
I disagree here, as Artic mentioned the REAL cost isn't the gold it is the Loss of a giant. Personally I HATE making wild trolls. I don't seem to lose 5% to barbarian, it is more like 80%. I almost NEVER have that promo wear off before they go barbarian. If they DO go barbarian, you then have to worry about said troll coming after you which them can reduce your forces even more.
The problem is I
can afford to create an army of wild trolls willy-nilly. The long-term benefit of really old HN troll-line upgrades more than balances the huge loss in citizens. At least, on epic games (see below related to that....).
Personally, I reliably get 1 in 4 trolls going barbarian. I just be certain they aren't in the cultural borders when it happens. This is also the amount I expect based on the 5% barbarian / 15% wearing off noted by the promotion for each turn.
Also isn't a hunter a 4/4 unit? Troll are actually weaker than hunter units which are not all that hard to crank out for other civs.
is 5 gold too cheap? maybe 100 is way too exspensive Although I would not mind paying more gold if instead of turning barbaian, they simply used the Enraged mechanic to be controlled by the AI (without the Enrages bonus) you just lose control of them till they win a fight. At 5 gold I wouldn't care if there was a 25% chance of that happening each turn until upgraded to troll hunters.
Perhaps 25 gold as was mentioned elsewhere. That would seriously crimp the ability to create an army of trolls in the early game where having such army is unbalancing.
Or bump them down to 3/3
units and simply make them crazed until promoted to Troll hunters.
It is slightly easier to build buildings early since you are only building cheap thralls, but that hurts late when you are try to use thralls for defense.
I have no idea how you see that it actually HELPS in any form. In no way is a 8 limit city EVERY going to compete with a 20-30 pop city for production if they were built in the same square. being a "perfect production -food balance means nothing... if anythign I make too MUCH food typically, I could support 2-4 specialists per with a 3x3 city with the giants easy. 1 or 2 farms, or 1 or 2 food resources are more than enough. I.m not sure what perfect commerce generation means but Commerce is commerce. More = better. Any city that makes more than it's maintenance cost is gravy.
The freedom from building units helps immensely in the early game because you can go directly for buildings without the need to spend time creating a defensive army to ward against barbarians. Later in the game this advantage becomes a disadvantage, but early on it means you can build wonders while other civilizations are trying to recoup military losses from invading barbarians. This flows through to the rest of the game amounting to a notable advantage.
I should note that if the problems related to the hidden nationality promotion were fixed, this would probably be a non-issue because the game would continue far longer....to the point where the disadvantage becomes compared to other larger cities becomes more apparent.
Add to that you will have 2 or 3 giant city for each city a regular civ has, which means building 2-3 palisades, 2-3 libraries, 2-3 Parthenon... Any building that adds percentages basicaly cost you 2-3 times the hammers.
Flip side however is 2-3 market places, 2-3 elder councils actually help but still cost more hammers.
THIS I agree with. The HN promo is HUGE on anything beyond Wild Trolls. I have not gotten a game to last long enough to get titans or elder trolls, speakers, or even Weilder of Arms for that matter. My HN hill giants, and Troll hunters are devastating my opponents before i ever declare war. Once every military unit of theirs is dead THEN I declare war and walk in with a army of thralls, using the HN units to wipe out any newly created defenders.
I stopped using this tactic because it was simply too effective.
This makes sense to me. I think even HG with HN are very powerful, but anything beyond that is simply too much.
If they rework the spawn rate as has been metioned, this may not be a good idea.
Not being able to capture enemy cites would be HUGELY game changing. I don't worry about too small buildings, some of the population is the people that lived there before (hence they can revolt) they stay in their tiny little homes
Probably you are correct. It was just a random idea I thought I'd throw out.
That doesn't scale based on game speed?
It does, I was mistaken....
I like the milita idea, and having national unit limits wouldn't be too bad, but I think Troll hunters, and Hill Giants should be exempt from them, and personally I think your suggested numbers may be a little low but not a bad over all idea.
Quite possibly they are too low. Its a mechanic I'd want to play-test with several variations to see how it works out.
My understanding is the AI does poorly on slower game speeds, you may see a differnce by playing at normal speed.
I started a new game at "Normal" speed, but all other options identical. I think you are correct that the AI doesn't do so well at slower speeds.
I started at an excellent location for both my starting city and expansion. I haven't had any serious clashes with other civilizations yet, but so far even just countering barbarians is
much more difficult. I'm also seeing indications I'm doing far worse than I expect in the technology race.
I'll play a few games at "Normal" speed and see what I think.
