Jotnar: Balance Discussion Thread

[Tarquelne]

I completly agree that it is odd they have affinity for walls when

If all else fails an autoacquired promo could give Jotnar giants a good wall-based bonus.

Hmm... and maybe a "Giant Armory" building to give ranged attacks via man-sized lawn darts.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

If all else fails an autoacquired promo could give Jotnar giants a good wall-based bonus.

Hmm... and maybe a "Giant Armory" building to give ranged attacks via man-sized lawn darts.

A giant "archer" unit that throws humans/sheep/cows/boulders would be pretty cool.

 

[WarKirby]

If all else fails an autoacquired promo could give Jotnar giants a good wall-based bonus.

Hmm... and maybe a "Giant Armory" building to give ranged attacks via man-sized lawn darts.

I like this idea.

I don't think a giant archer unit would work, in general. Giants would probably be lacking the manual dexterity, and tools, necessary to make bows. And they wouldn't really be able to carry around a lot of big throwing stuff at once.

But done via a building would be perfect. It could give an autoaqquire promotion to any giant that enters the city

• +4 ranged attack strength
• +1 operational range

As long as they remain inside the city, they'd be able to grab stuff from the armoury and chuck it at enemies.

I love it.

 

[Darksaber1]

Maybe Jotnar should get a type of Javeliner? or maybe a sort of Thrall archer/javelin militia? Or else get the ranged attack promotion for walls in hills? (Depending on the size of the giants, a good forrest should provide ample crude Javelins)

 

[Breez]

I like this idea.

I don't think a giant archer unit would work, in general. Giants would probably be lacking the manual dexterity, and tools, necessary to make bows. And they wouldn't really be able to carry around a lot of big throwing stuff at once.

But done via a building would be perfect. It could give an autoaqquire promotion to any giant that enters the city

• +4 ranged attack strength
• +1 operational range

As long as they remain inside the city, they'd be able to grab stuff from the armoury and chuck it at enemies.

I love it.

that would be interesting

 

[WarKirby]

Maybe Jotnar should get a type of Javeliner? or maybe a sort of Thrall archer/javelin militia?

The problem with this, is to make Giant Sized Javelins, you'd pretty much need to use a whole tree for it.

Where do you get tools for making something like that? Being big brings engineering challenges that aren't easy to overcome.

I reckon jotnar ranged units would be more about hurling whatever comes to hand. rocks, houses, uprooted trees, etc.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

The problem with this, is to make Giant Sized Javelins, you'd pretty much need to use a whole tree for it.

Where do you get tools for making something like that? Being big brings engineering challenges that aren't easy to overcome.

I reckon jotnar ranged units would be more about hurling whatever comes to hand. rocks, houses, uprooted trees, etc.

Maybe you could link the animation of the hurled object to match the current tile's terrain/resources.

I'm sure that wouldn't be an incredibly bothersome bit of programming for little gain. Not at all.

 

[Darksaber1]

The problem with this, is to make Giant Sized Javelins, you'd pretty much need to use a whole tree for it.

Where do you get tools for making something like that? Being big brings engineering challenges that aren't easy to overcome.

I reckon jotnar ranged units would be more about hurling whatever comes to hand. rocks, houses, uprooted trees, etc.

They use giant whittling knives and axes to make pointy trees [partially lame defense]. Or, they could just do like in Forgotten Relms and throw rocks.

 

[WarKirby]

Maybe you could link the animation of the hurled object to match the current tile's terrain/resources.

I'm sure that wouldn't be an incredibly bothersome bit of programming for little gain. Not at all.

I have a feeling this isn't possible. Animations in the Civ engine are very limited in ways I don't fully understand.

 

[Arctic Circle]

Affinity for walls are both thematic, the home or 'staedding' is their central core. Building a protective barrier around it and feeling more safe is 'happy-feeling'. Also since almost all Jotnar units do not get defensive bonus, the + is a way to make Walls still a useful building.

 

[Brokenbone]

Maybe it's less a balance thing, and more a strategy thing, but if as the Jotnar you can snag the Guild of the Nine, you may find that fits very well into your game, assuming you have a maniacal focus on grabbing gold, such as through RoK religion.

I know I breathed a good sigh of relief when I was able to bolster the defenses of cities, or create fodder in a "light on giants" stack of doom, just by spending coin on what amounts to weak (zero starting XP) human champions. Worst case they garrison in cities with training yards for a long time, getting passive XP much like Thralls would, best case they go out and provide support in taking cities.

Netted out, GotN seemed to be a really, really nice thing to have some focus on. Currency brings you more money anyhow, so it's going to be a priority you'd figure, but getting a way to feel a little more comfortable than having cities guarded even by hordes of Thralls (or bad defender, moderately high AC orc conscripts) is again, "nice."

 

[Breez]

Also since almost all Jotnar units do not get defensive bonus, the + is a way to make Walls still a useful building.

If happiness were an issue for them, I might agree, however with a max of 8 people happiness isn't much of an issue for me... I still build them eventually for the thralls, but it is LOW priority.

 

[Brokenbone]

If happiness were an issue for them, I might agree, however with a max of 8 people happiness isn't much of an issue for me... I still build them eventually for the thralls, but it is LOW priority.

Wall defense bonus gets a little more useful if you end up stuffing a city with metal weapon armed mercenaries!

 

[Breez]

very true! Or in my case Dwarfs you rescued from the lizardmen

 

[Brokenbone]

The above exchange reminds me of the general point that Command I & II can mean really interesting results for the Jotnar when they luck into enemy units. I stuck the Crown of Stephanos onto my best Mouth of the Divine, when trying to chew up some enemies with half decent living units. Snagged a couple of Sheaim Mages that way, saved me having to turn certain Citizens into Skalds. Again, sure, all civs can use the Command promos in certain cases, maximize chances with the right items and such, but for a civ who can't build a lot of "normal" and at the same time, useful units, grabbing even basic units like someone else's champion, someone else's Priest of (insert religion) etc., can really help fill in the holes inherent to the Jotnar military.

 

[Haerzog]

Any perticular reason why Jotnar cities were changed to be limited to size 8? in my game i planned on them reaching 10, which meant they could manage all tiles and still get a couple specialists, but 8 is only just enough to work their tiles, which makes acquiring great people a non-occurance. Oh, and another thing, you need to change the wall of the covenant, it claims to be providing great person points, but it provides them to no particular type of great person. Same with the halls of the ancestors.

 

[fothal]

A few thoughts on the Jotnar, some of which have already been mentioned.

First off, I greatly enjoy the Jotnar. By far my favorite race.

I've played several games to the point of "inevitability", and had to keep bumping up the difficulty until I reached "Diety", Double changes to the armageddon counter, and the various options to increase the amount of barbarians.

One caveat before I dive in: I naturally plan ahead in everything. By turn 50 I'm already planning contingencies for turn 500. To someone who doesn't plan ahead like this, the type of unbalancing abuse I talk about below might not be nearly as big an issue.

My conclusions:

1. Wild Troll units are too cheap to create and the risk too low. So you loose one in four. So what? An army of wild trolls is unstoppable in the early game. Most of the problems with this could be countered by raising the cost to 100 gold each.
2. The fact that units are not built with hammers means it is a little too easy to build buildings in cities. The smaller city size doesn't hinder this, it actually helps because most cities can reach the maximum size. Some of these cities are guaranteed to have a perfect balance of food and hills for maximum production output. Others are guaranteed to be perfect for commerce generation. The remainder help spawn Citizen units to expand the army.
3. Hidden Nationality on Wild Trolls and Hill Giants can be far too powerful. Crush entire civilizations without ever declaring war. Make civilizations defenseless against barbarians and/or demons by crushing their entire army with virtually no risk to your own civilization. Worse yet, the hidden nationality carries over as the unit upgrades. Just throw an army of Wild Trolls at your neighbors and eventually one will survive long enough to get lots of promotions (about 1 in 5 Wild Trolls if you start on this path immediately). That surviving troll (or later, Hill Giant) becomes a Juggernaut of Destruction with 500+ XP and is more or less unstoppable (eventually, most battles have 95% or better chance of success). 4-5 such "Juggernauts of Destruction" can wipe out anything with virtually no risk (60% or more withdraw chance!) I haven't even gotten to the final units on the upgrade path yet, but the mind boggles at what could be accomplished by 4 HN Titons and 4 HN Troll Elders, all with 300-500 XP. I like the hidden nationality promotion flavor-wise, but it simply isn't balanced. Or at least, it isn't for me.

A few ideas on potential changes to fix the "Juggernaut of Destruction" problem I describe. I have no clue how feasible any of these are as I've never done any modding for Civ4.

My first inclination is to make it so that Hidden Nationality cannot be carried over when the unit upgrades. This makes a bit of sense to me conceptually. A Hill Giant with HN is fine. But when it upgrades to a Wielder of Arms, everyone with an ounce of common sense knows what nation it belongs to. It would still be possible to build up a few very powerful units, but only for a relatively short amount of time until opposing civilizations are able to realistically counter those units.

Another possibility is to remove the option to build Jotnar Settlers in cities, and make it impossible for the Jotnar to capture enemy cities (they are built on the wrong scale, after all). This would force using Citizens creation of cities and greatly reduce the number of "old" units.

Modify the amount of time it takes for age-based promotions based on game speed. Part of the problem at "Epic" speed (which I typically use) is that the clash between civilizations doesn't start until at least turn 150, at which point you have a large pool of giants with 50+ years on them (1 age promotion) and several with 100+ (2 age promotions).

Make all military units "National" units with limits on the number that can be created. Unlimited Citizens, but no more than 8 Tier 1 units, 6 Tier2 units, 4 Tier3 units, and 2 Tier4 units. Then make Citizens upgradable to a "Militia" unit which is identical, except it has a defense strength of 8 (and still an attack strength of 2, or even attack of 0...and still no promotions allowed). The "Militia" would be the defenders of cities against barbarians, etc., and could be upgraded as slots become available for military units.

My next game I'm going to try a faster game speed. Perhaps if the enemy civilizations are obtaining technologies faster compared to how fast my army of Wild Trolls and Hill Giants are killing armies, the situation might not be quite as unbalanced.

 

[Arctic Circle]

The idea is really that you aren't supposed to afford to 'throw an army of wild trolls' at your enemy without paying for that later - the loss of the Jotnar Citizens are supposed to take a long time to gain back. Then perhaps the spawning needs to be statistically more even, but lesser in numbers and frequency.

And yes, Hidden Nationality perhaps shouldn't carry over during upgrades.

 

[WarKirby]

I'd like to suggest, that hidden nationality should only not carry over for GIANT upgrades. Not trolls

For trolls, it makes sense. They're wild and feral. A Troll hunter isn't any much more civilised than a wild troll.

 

[Breez]

Fothal, before I start I wanted to say I agree I think this race is too powerful currently and needs some SLIGHT toning down. I just don't necessarily agree with some of your conclusions.

My conclusions:

[*]Wild Troll units are too cheap to create and the risk too low. So you loose one in four. So what? An army of wild trolls is unstoppable in the early game. Most of the problems with this could be countered by raising the cost to 100 gold each.

I disagree here, as Artic mentioned the REAL cost isn't the gold it is the Loss of a giant. Personally I HATE making wild trolls. I don't seem to lose 5% to barbarian, it is more like 80%. I almost NEVER have that promo wear off before they go barbarian. If they DO go barbarian, you then have to worry about said troll coming after you which them can reduce your forces even more.

Also isn't a hunter a 4/4 unit? Troll are actually weaker than hunter units which are not all that hard to crank out for other civs.

is 5 gold too cheap? maybe 100 is way too exspensive Although I would not mind paying more gold if instead of turning barbaian, they simply used the Enraged mechanic to be controlled by the AI (without the Enrages bonus) you just lose control of them till they win a fight. At 5 gold I wouldn't care if there was a 25% chance of that happening each turn until upgraded to troll hunters.

Or bump them down to 3/3 units and simply make them crazed until promoted to Troll hunters.

[*]The fact that units are not built with hammers means it is a little too easy to build buildings in cities. The smaller city size doesn't hinder this, it actually helps because most cities can reach the maximum size. Some of these cities are guaranteed to have a perfect balance of food and hills for maximum production output. Others are guaranteed to be perfect for commerce generation. The remainder help spawn Citizen units to expand the army.

It is slightly easier to build buildings early since you are only building cheap thralls, but that hurts late when you are try to use thralls for defense.

I have no idea how you see that it actually HELPS in any form. In no way is a 8 limit city EVERY going to compete with a 20-30 pop city for production if they were built in the same square. being a "perfect production -food balance means nothing... if anythign I make too MUCH food typically, I could support 2-4 specialists per with a 3x3 city with the giants easy. 1 or 2 farms, or 1 or 2 food resources are more than enough. I.m not sure what perfect commerce generation means but Commerce is commerce. More = better. Any city that makes more than it's maintenance cost is gravy.

Add to that you will have 2 or 3 giant city for each city a regular civ has, which means building 2-3 palisades, 2-3 libraries, 2-3 Parthenon... Any building that adds percentages basicaly cost you 2-3 times the hammers.

Flip side however is 2-3 market places, 2-3 elder councils actually help but still cost more hammers.

[*]Hidden Nationality on Wild Trolls and Hill Giants can be far too powerful. Crush entire civilizations without ever declaring war. Make civilizations defenseless against barbarians and/or demons by crushing their entire army with virtually no risk to your own civilization. Worse yet, the hidden nationality carries over as the unit upgrades. Just throw an army of Wild Trolls at your neighbors and eventually one will survive long enough to get lots of promotions (about 1 in 5 Wild Trolls if you start on this path immediately). That surviving troll (or later, Hill Giant) becomes a Juggernaut of Destruction with 500+ XP and is more or less unstoppable (eventually, most battles have 95% or better chance of success). 4-5 such "Juggernauts of Destruction" can wipe out anything with virtually no risk (60% or more withdraw chance!) I haven't even gotten to the final units on the upgrade path yet, but the mind boggles at what could be accomplished by 4 HN Titons and 4 HN Troll Elders, all with 300-500 XP. I like the hidden nationality promotion flavor-wise, but it simply isn't balanced. Or at least, it isn't for me.

THIS I agree with. The HN promo is HUGE on anything beyond Wild Trolls. I have not gotten a game to last long enough to get titans or elder trolls, speakers, or even Weilder of Arms for that matter. My HN hill giants, and Troll hunters are devastating my opponents before i ever declare war. Once every military unit of theirs is dead THEN I declare war and walk in with a army of thralls, using the HN units to wipe out any newly created defenders.

I stopped using this tactic because it was simply too effective.

My first inclination is to make it so that Hidden Nationality cannot be carried over when the unit upgrades. This makes a bit of sense to me conceptually. A Hill Giant with HN is fine. But when it upgrades to a Wielder of Arms, everyone with an ounce of common sense knows what nation it belongs to. It would still be possible to build up a few very powerful units, but only for a relatively short amount of time until opposing civilizations are able to realistically counter those units.

This makes sense to me. I think even HG with HN are very powerful, but anything beyond that is simply too much.

Another possibility is to remove the option to build Jotnar Settlers in cities, and make it impossible for the Jotnar to capture enemy cities (they are built on the wrong scale, after all). This would force using Citizens creation of cities and greatly reduce the number of "old" units.

If they rework the spawn rate as has been metioned, this may not be a good idea.

Not being able to capture enemy cites would be HUGELY game changing. I don't worry about too small buildings, some of the population is the people that lived there before (hence they can revolt) they stay in their tiny little homes

Modify the amount of time it takes for age-based promotions based on game speed. Part of the problem at "Epic" speed (which I typically use) is that the clash between civilizations doesn't start until at least turn 150, at which point you have a large pool of giants with 50+ years on them (1 age promotion) and several with 100+ (2 age promotions).

That doesn't scale based on game speed?

Make all military units "National" units with limits on the number that can be created. Unlimited Citizens, but no more than 8 Tier 1 units, 6 Tier2 units, 4 Tier3 units, and 2 Tier4 units. Then make Citizens upgradable to a "Militia" unit which is identical, except it has a defense strength of 8 (and still an attack strength of 2, or even attack of 0...and still no promotions allowed). The "Militia" would be the defenders of cities against barbarians, etc., and could be upgraded as slots become available for military units.

I like the milita idea, and having national unit limits wouldn't be too bad, but I think Troll hunters, and Hill Giants should be exempt from them, and personally I think your suggested numbers may be a little low but not a bad over all idea.

My next game I'm going to try a faster game speed. Perhaps if the enemy civilizations are obtaining technologies faster compared to how fast my army of Wild Trolls and Hill Giants are killing armies, the situation might not be quite as unbalanced.

My understanding is the AI does poorly on slower game speeds, you may see a differnce by playing at normal speed.