Jotnar: Balance Discussion Thread

[Breez]

How do they fit in those cramped tunnels? You can't just build mines to giant scale. The earth wouldn't take it, and would just collapse in on itself

You should visit a Marble Mine in Kansas City (I played in a Paintball field set up in one) or See the Hutchinson Salt Mines....

Okay the technology is newer on those.

So lets look at the Salt Cathedrals in Poland that were started in the twelfth century. But I don't now how long after that they got so freaking huge.

I think the earth can handle it

However I agree the Kazad should get a mine they can build there (would their workers have to walk on mountains to do that? I guess if just workers not a big deal) Jotnar... hmmm maybe a reduced production Wind Mill. Beats a useless spot in their limited space.

 

[Valkrionn]

If you're going to put a windmill on a mountain, there's no way it would be reduced production... High altitude wins are stronger and more constant, so it would actually yield HIGHER production.

 

[Haerzog]

I believe a race of giant beings would, if they were inclined to mine in the first place, devise a giant corkscrew, muscle powered, in order to bore vertically down. As the corkscrew bored down the platform would go down with it, and supports and side shafts would be created as it went.

Due to the size of Giants this seems to me to be the safest way to get a giant sized being underground, without operating through a horizontal access way, with the required ramps, stairs, and coiling loops which would be required to reach sufficient depths and would be more time consuming to create and less efficient at tapping the resources.

 

[WarKirby]

Or maybe they'd just use their human servants instead, who are glad to have a decent wage, a roof over their heads, and food in their stomach.

I get the feeling that jotnar societies would be a mix of moderate numbers of humans, living among the giants.

 

[Tarquelne]

If you're going to put a windmill on a mountain, there's no way it would be reduced production... High altitude wins are stronger and more constant, so it would actually yield HIGHER production.

There's the matter of getting materials to and from the windmill. Including supplies for whoever works there.

 

[Valkrionn]

True, although you could have the excess power generated by the windmill operate a giant conveyor belt....

 

[Tarquelne]

True, although you could have the excess power generated by the windmill operate a giant conveyor belt....

Make it out of giant gila monster hide and that just might work.

 

[Haerzog]

huh? What does that mean?

 

[Valkrionn]

lol. It's a joke. We had a discussion about giant gila monsters in another thread.

 

[Arctic Circle]

I am playing Uxol, and my closest neighbour was Ljosalfar. They decided to war with me, and it went fairly well. I got them on the run. Then at armageddon counter 21 they used the worldspell and killed every Jotnar unit I had including Egrass and the mounted Ashed Veil hero.

Its so amazingly painful to get back from that. I will beat back Ljosalfar, and am currently whooping their ass with my Mercenaries and a few new Troll Hunters. However I feel that I lost ~100 turns momentum.

And about the mountains. I always intended to allow Jotnar to build something on mountains, but never got around to it.

 

[WarKirby]

how does playing with uxol work out? with the massively increased costs for all units, financial trait seems more necessary than ever. I can't imagine being able to do anything with jotnar, without the income that trait brings

 

[Lemminkäinen]

how does playing with uxol work out? with the massively increased costs for all units, financial trait seems more necessary than ever. I can't imagine being able to do anything with jotnar, without the income that trait brings

The Raider trait is sort of another way of getting income though not on par with Financial. The Arcane trait is rather useless, though, so Uxol is by far the weakest Jotnar leader. Especially as the wall makes Barbarian trait kinda superfluous if one is worried about barbarians.

 

[Breez]

Then at armageddon counter 21 they used the worldspell and killed every Jotnar unit I had including Egrass and the mounted Ashed Veil hero.

Its so amazingly painful to get back from that.

I say behead the general in charge of that invasion plan. Committing 100% of your forces before they use that world spell is just a mass suicide waiting to happen.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

So...I modded the heck out of Jotnar and have been playing with my changes. If anybody is interested...

1. Gave Jotnar citizens unitclass adept and channeling 1. I was finding you have to wait FOREVER to get to any arcane units...which felt very unfair when you pick the arcane leader. As it stands they can't build mana nodes...so they aren't capable of wrecking the game too badly.

1a. Switched palace mana to Earth, Sun, and Law. Law fits their focus on tradition, Earth and Sun feel better than Spirit and Creation(which is nearly useless for them).

2. Give giantkin a weak ranged attack that scales with the age promotions.

3. Give 3rd-stage Giantkin access to the fear promotion.

4. The giantkin age promotions increase collateral damage resistance and bombard damage.

5. Reduced base bombard damage across the board.

6. Added weak collateral damage to all the Jotnar (not trolls, thralls, or animals) units that didn't have it.

7. Made a new racial promo for Trolls, they no longer have giantkin and don't get bigger with age. Instead they have access to cannibalize, increased heal rate (no regen promo), randomly gain enraged, and are immune to fear and vulnerable to fire.

8. Trolls are removed as an upgrade option for Jotnar Citizens. You have to build the nasty buggers. Expensive enough to hurt a bit. My justification is that nobody grows up and becomes a troll...you are born one. The core of Jotnar is the more human-appearing citizens, so I visualize the Trolls as unreliable mercs. Reduced STR of Wild Trolls to 3, gave them back their defensive bonus.

9. Added Hill Giants and Wild Trolls as lair spawns (from steadings and ruins respectively).

10. STR 7 Hill Giants were way nasty as an early barbarian. Toned them down to STR 5, reduced cost somewhat. Gave them access to Bronze.

11. Added "Thane" as an axeman equivalent. Using Egrass art, Swordsman animation. STR 7, iron access.

12. Made Jotnar versions of Religious heroes. Same unit class, just increased the scale of the art and added the giantkin promotion.


Seems balanced well enough on Diety, Epic, Tectonics Pangea....I'm past turn 200 and don't have a big enough army to rush my neighbors. Not enough money to upgrade my citizens. Been invaded twice, unsuccessfully. Have built a few trolls...most of them have died or turned. I'm 2nd in points. I'd be doing better as Elves, for sure.

 

[Haerzog]

I like many of those changes. Not sure what you mean about the religious hero's, since somebody like Rosier is human, and supposed to be human, no matter who makes him. Although, it would be amusing in a monty-python way to make it so that if, when the jotnar make him, he is so big his feet drag the ground on the side of his horse.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

I like many of those changes. Not sure what you mean about the religious hero's, since somebody like Rosier is human, and supposed to be human, no matter who makes him. Although, it would be amusing in a monty-python way to make it so that if, when the jotnar make him, he is so big his feet drag the ground on the side of his horse.

You have to bear in mind that I am by no means a lore purist...the fact that a particular hero is a human in the base story makes no difference to me. The game stops following the storyline immediately in any case...the "wrong" civs will build heroes and found religions, Great People spawn with names and backstories that make no sense whatsoever for the civ that gets them, etc...

To me the backstory is just flavor that makes the game more enjoyable. And having a teeny-tiny Chalid somehow emerge to lead the Jotnar bothers me more than having a Chalid-esque Giant born to fill the same role.

Totally a matter of personal taste. i understand not liking it if you are trying to run the game as a lore simulator.


Valid point about the mounted heroes, btw. What I'd like to do is replace the horses with mammoths or Rhinos...but I lack the skills to do so right now.

 

[Haerzog]

That would require more resources on the world map. Which would probably have to be restricted to certain terrain types (Savannah for rhino's, tundra for mammoths). If only certain civ's could use these species than they would be restricted to those terrain types, unless the game was allowed to convert horses to mammoths/rhino's when the terrain was changed. Might also require a new terrain type, Savannah possibly. Thinking about it though, it would be an interesting addition to the worldbuilder. Would fill the map maker out some more. Always thought that the game was a little low on indigenous wildlife resource variety. Just what i think anyway.

And also, i thought that if the inclination was high enough, Great People could relatively easily be made to spawn with names relevant to the acquiring civilization. Like Fodgel Thor only showing up for dwarves or kilmorph civs. How difficult would that be to do?

 

[Arctic Circle]

Well. I would disagree with building trolls, the troll changes and making for example the hero's change race. Bambur for example are clearly 'dwarf' for me. Many of the other changes seem to me to make the Jotnar too good.

Why not make the Cultist into 'reduced adepts' if you'd need arcane units early. Otherwise, really, once you get mages and archmages with Uxol you'll kick severe butt.

Imagine a group of str 8 units with second level spells. Stoneskin, just to mention one. And no 'weak' mage units to target with your marksmen units.

But if you have fun with your mod I am honored that you changed 'my' stuff.

 

[scutarii]

for Jotnar there are many useless buildings - such as stables, siege workshops, hunter's halls, etc. The worst thing is that AI recommends to build them and it is pure annoyance to scroll through these useless building options through the game.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Well. I would disagree with building trolls, the troll changes and making for example the hero's change race. Bambur for example are clearly 'dwarf' for me. Many of the other changes seem to me to make the Jotnar too good.

Why not make the Cultist into 'reduced adepts' if you'd need arcane units early. Otherwise, really, once you get mages and archmages with Uxol you'll kick severe butt.

Imagine a group of str 8 units with second level spells. Stoneskin, just to mention one. And no 'weak' mage units to target with your marksmen units.

But if you have fun with your mod I am honored that you changed 'my' stuff.

Yeah, my changes almost amount to a modmodmodmod. I was going for my D&D-flavored Giants...just a matter of personal taste. Certainly no disrespect intended to your work. You produced my new favorite civ, after all.

The arcane access might be too much...I just got Mouth of the Divine in my test game and they are ending up with access to lots of spells. Too many, really. What I'll probably do is make a Jotnar adept equivalent so they don't have to wait until Sorcery for an arcane unit.

Collateral damage is a pain to add (couldn't get promotions to add it to a unit that didn't have any to begin with) and has minimal impact. Might dump that.

The ranged damage(boulder hurling) is a lot of fun and just feels right to me. I'll keep that.

The troll changes...probably just a matter of taste there. Weakens the Jotnar recon line substantially, which I was willing to live with. Also disallows troll spam in response to an early invasion, which felt wonky to me.

Religious heroes...also a matter of taste, I think. If I'm playing giants the only midgets I want on my team are thralls. The giantkin promotion is an advantage, but I'm increasing the cost to build them by about 33%. Could also require that they be upgraded from a citizen...but that might be too harsh.

Mana change...I dumped spirit and creation because the spells didn't seem that thematic. Creation in particular...rapid growth is not the Jotnar flavor.