Judge Mowat comments: Is it impossible to have a proper discussion on rape?

Why is the onus so heavily placed on the victim, not the perpetrator?

Perhaps the unique nature of the act? One that's generally consensual and fantastic but sometimes horrific and subhuman? Mixed with a healthy dose of not wanting to go back to medieval criminalization of intercourse as an assumed wrongness? I don't like at all how things work now, they suck, but I don't know that there is actually a way to reform the legal structure to anything that doesn't suck instead of merely being better.
 
I view the judge's stance as nothing more than victim shaming.

Women can get drunk as much as they want, they shouldn't have to worry about getting raped. Telling them to stop drinking so much so they don't get raped is equivalent to telling women to stop dressing so slutty so they don't get raped.
The bizarre thing is, the judge doesn't even seem to saying that women should avoid drinking to avoid rape, she says that they should avoid drinking so that they can give more reliable testimony when they are raped. She seems to take it for granted that women are going to be raped, and that the question is only how well prepared they are to achieve a conviction.

Possibly that's a result of poor phrasing on either her part or the part of the reporter, but given how poor a grasp this woman seems to have on the issue, it's also possible that she doesn't really understand what the relationship between intoxication and rape actually is.
 
The bizarre thing is, the judge doesn't even seem to saying that women should avoid drinking to avoid rape, she says that they should avoid drinking so that they can give more reliable testimony when they are raped. She seems to take it for granted that women are going to be raped, and that the question is only how well prepared they are to achieve a conviction.

Possibly that's a result of poor phrasing on either her part or the part of the reporter, but given how poor a grasp this woman seems to have on the issue, it's also possible that she doesn't really understand what the relationship between intoxication and rape actually is.

I personally got the impression she was specifically talking about conviction rates of rape, rather than occurances of rape. Given that low conviction rates are often hightlighted, I don't think it's unreasonable to address them. And with regards to that specific thing, the fact that drunk women aren't able to give reliable evidence is a significant factor.

Her experience, as a judge, likely involves cases where the victim is unable to give reliable testimoney due to the influnce of alcohol at the time of the alleged rape, and therefore the jury is unable to reach a guilty verdict (or even the trial collapses completely).
 
Personally I think it's a valid concern. But the conclusion I draw from it is that our legal system isn't adequately set up to properly prosecute rapes in situations where the victim was drunk. It's a really difficult problem, though, and I don't think the advice of the judge -- that women simply shouldn't get drunk -- is very useful at all.
 
While I certianly agree that women shouldn't have to worry about getting raped when then drink, the fact is that they do. And because of them drinking so heavily, it is often impossible to convict the rapists. I don't see how pointing that out is "victim shaming", it's simply accepting the sad reality of the world.

You know, "don't be alone with any male you know, at all, ever" is equally valid analogous advice (more statistically valid than "don't get drunk" or "don't go out alone" given that most rape victims know their rapists). This would be accepting a sad reality of the world too.

One could even link this advice to convictions by pointing out that if you're alone with someone you know, it means it's just two people's word against each other and the personal connection creates doubt too.

But we don't hear that one much from well-meaning people. Why is that?
 
While I certianly agree that women shouldn't have to worry about getting raped when then drink, the fact is that they do. And because of them drinking so heavily, it is often impossible to convict the rapists. I don't see how pointing that out is "victim shaming", it's simply accepting the sad reality of the world.

the judge in question said:
‘I will also say, and I will be pilloried for saying so, but the rape conviction statistics will not improve until women stop getting so drunk.

It's putting the onus to change on the victims rather than the perpetrators. It's telling them "The things that you do, they get you raped. You need to stop doing them", while at the same time excusing the exact same action (drinking heavily) when it is done by a man.

It might be reality, but these are 2 separate issues for me, and that's how they should be handled.

Issue 1: Women drink too much
Issue 2: Rape

Is issue 1 even a thing? I have no idea, but this judge sure thinks so. If it's a thing, then there are a lot more problems there than just an inability to file a police report after you've been mugged, raped, assaulted, shot, or whatever. And we should look at the underlying problem, not the symptoms. Tying it to the symptoms, such as rape, puts a bit of shame on the victim, rather than on the criminal.

The bizarre thing is, the judge doesn't even seem to saying that women should avoid drinking to avoid rape, she says that they should avoid drinking so that they can give more reliable testimony when they are raped. She seems to take it for granted that women are going to be raped, and that the question is only how well prepared they are to achieve a conviction.

Possibly that's a result of poor phrasing on either her part or the part of the reporter, but given how poor a grasp this woman seems to have on the issue, it's also possible that she doesn't really understand what the relationship between intoxication and rape actually is.

I wouldn't have minded at all if she made a point that young (?) women in general consume too much alcohol and that there is a serious drinking problem that leads to other issues, such as an inability to report a crime that might have been committed against you.

It's a really bad PR blunder to tie these issues together, I think, especially if your recommendation is going to be that women need to drink less.
 
I actually got mugged when I was just about too drunk to realise what was happening. Funnily enough, nobody suggested I'd brought it on myself or that I should stop drinking so much so that next time I get mugged I will be able to identify them.
 
Just remember; women are told to avoid getting raped, men aren't told to not rape.

The disparity is pretty big.
 
Men aren't told not to rape?
 
Men are barely taught to identify rape would be a better way to put it.
 
Just to be clear, the judge is not saying the "usual" thing, that women bring it on themselves by getting drunk. She's saying that getting drunk makes it more difficult to prosecute, because now you have a drunk witness who can't remember anything, vs a man who swears blind she gave consent.

They're both rather useless statements though. I mean, what are women supposed to do with this information? Are we seriously saying that we should ignore all the other causes of low rape conviction rapes, and recommend a programme of abstinence from drinking for women?
 
Men are barely taught to identify rape would be a better way to put it.
That's a good point. We should be teaching men how to identify when a woman is too drunk to consent. That would be a much better prescription than "women should stop drinking".
 
Men are barely taught to identify rape would be a better way to put it.

Huh. I never considered my circle of people to be quite that exceptional. Maybe I should reassess.
 
You know, "don't be alone with any male you know, at all, ever" is equally valid analogous advice (more statistically valid than "don't get drunk" or "don't go out alone" given that most rape victims know their rapists). This would be accepting a sad reality of the world too.

One could even link this advice to convictions by pointing out that if you're alone with someone you know, it means it's just two people's word against each other and the personal connection creates doubt too.

But we don't hear that one much from well-meaning people. Why is that?

"Don't go near men" is not in any way practical. Don't get completely blotto is, while by no means a great recommendation, at least vaguely plausible and I can sort of understand why she makes it. To be honest though, do I agree that it's not really a solution.

I suppose it's quite interesting how different people focus on different things. To me, the key point of the article in the OP was on how it is nearly impossible to convict people in cases where the victim is drunk. To you, it seems to be on the recommendation not to get drunk.

Personally I think it's a valid concern. But the conclusion I draw from it is that our legal system isn't adequately set up to properly prosecute rapes in situations where the victim was drunk. It's a really difficult problem, though, and I don't think the advice of the judge -- that women simply shouldn't get drunk -- is very useful at all.

That's much closer to how I took it. It really highlights an issue with the way the legal system works, and explains some of the oft criticised low conviction rates for rape. That Mowats "solution" isn't great doesn't lessen the issue that she raises. Added to this, I haven't seen a sensible solution to the issue. The reponse of anti-rape activists, behind their vitriol, seems to boils down (ah, hell, not that phrase...) of "teach men not to rape" which, while an admirable goal, doesn't seem to, in practical terms, be any more useful than "women stop getting bladdered".
 
I’m not sure whether it is possible to have a fruitful discussion about rape. But it might be possible to have a fruitful discussion about the very specific thing that the judge said about increasing the number of rape convictions. To do so, though, would require that one resist one’s reflex response, here represented by Brook’s claim that the judge’s comments are a form of “blaming the victim.” The tendency by society to blame victims of rape for their rape is a major part of why rape has gone under-prosecuted and even under reported, so it is right that people have made a campaign to resist blaming the victim, even to the point of the phrase “don’t blame the victim” becoming a formulaic phrase. But here that formulaic phrase interferes with hearing the judge’s point.*

The judge’s point is that the victim is not just a victim. The victim is also the chief witness to the crime, and if that witness’ capacity to take in information about the crime is compromised, the judge has found, it tends to make the conviction harder. Improving on this point is, as people here have already noted, certainly not the only thing that could make convictions more likely, so the judge’s word choice was unfortunate in that regard. It may not even be the chief thing that could increase the number of convictions. But she is speaking from years of experience, and she knows that victims having their wits about them could be a thing that could help secure more convictions.

If we phrase it that way, we can even minimize the reference to drinking, which, again, provokes our reflex reactions on such issues (since “oh, she was drunk” has been one of the main ways of blaming the victim). Instead, the emphasis should fall on being an alert observer of potential crime. In the wake of the Ferguson shooting (and Tim’s analysis of it), I’ve been toying with the idea of getting certified as a “trained observer” (if there’s a way civilians can do so), so that should I ever witness a crime, my observations of it would have that status (also I’d just like to become a more observant person).

As some here have said, if you tell women they can’t get as drunk as men, that will feel unfair. But if you encourage people to be alert potential witnesses, some might, on those grounds, voluntarily curtail their own consumption of alcohol. If that means that one victim notices one thing that helps secure one more conviction, we can all celebrate that. (While working on the other things that would secure more convictions and decrease the incidence. It needn't be an either/or).

*we've already slipped into it, as I was composing this response. Mise is trying to keep us on track. Again, that will help us have a more productive discussion, which was the OP's other concern.
 
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=163267

What if the guy is too drunk to ask for consent and the girl is too drunk to give it and they both just 'go at it' in a drunken lovefest. Who is at fault? Could the guy charge the girl with rape for not getting consent from him?
Yes. The person at fault is the person who (a) caused actual harm, and (b) didn't ensure that the other person consented. So if the man claims that he was raped (i.e. that actual harm was caused), and the woman didn't ensure that the man consented (or couldn't prove that she did), then yes, the woman can be prosecuted for rape, just as in the case if the genders were reversed.
 
That's insane. I know I am going to catch 20 kinds of hell for this, but that's not rape. That's two drunk people bumping uglies and maybe wishing they hadn't drunk so much the next day. Being drunk does not (or at least should not) absolve you of being responsible for your actions. You CHOOSE to get into that inebriated state. We sure as hell don't tell drunk drivers, "Well, you killed 8 nuns in a microbus, but you were drunk so were not responsible for your actions, so yeah have a nice day."
 
That's insane. I know I am going to catch 20 kinds of hell for this, but that's not rape. That's two drunk people bumping uglies and maybe wishing they hadn't drunk so much the next day. Being drunk does not (or at least should not) absolve you of being responsible for your actions. You CHOOSE to get into that inebriated state. We sure as hell don't tell drunk drivers, "Well, you killed 8 nuns in a microbus, but you were drunk so were not responsible for your actions, so yeah have a nice day."
What? No, it's the exact opposite: it's saying "just because you were drunk doesn't mean you can get away with sleeping with someone without their consent". Why should the fact that you're drunk absolve you of the responsibility to ensure that the other person consents?

As for your second sentence, if they both regretted having had sex, then there is basically no chance that either of them will be convicted of rape. You would be very hard pressed to prove that neither people gave consent, neither people wanted to sleep with each other, but both people went ahead with it anyway. Regretting having sex is not the same as not giving consent beforehand.

Finally, I think there is a reason why these cases are basically never seen or heard of outside of ridiculous hypothetical thought experiments on internet forums. Meanwhile, 93% of rapes go unpunished. Would be nice if we could focus on that instead, being as that is what rape laws are actually made for, and actually used to prosecute in practice.
 
Her experience, as a judge, likely involves cases where the victim is unable to give reliable testimoney due to the influnce of alcohol at the time of the alleged rape, and therefore the jury is unable to reach a guilty verdict (or even the trial collapses completely).

her experience as a judge has her saying that a 13 year old girl ''made most of the running'' with a 41 year old officer when she suspended his sentence or
''I would have suspended your sentence but for current views, but felt obliged to jail you for 10 months'' to a bus driver for indecently assaulting a 12 year old girl, all from your link page in the op, is it not any wonder that people are a little peeeved with her comments

Social workers are probably still drinking champers in some womens shelters hearing that she has retired
 
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