June 2020 Update - Patch Notes Discussion

[Kupe Navigator]

I highly doubt that Kongo would have another leader. Not because Kongo's not relevant enough, but because he's part of the civs where the LUA and the CUA are very tied together.
Kongo's palace have 5 slots for any Great Work not because kongolese palaces were especially decorated but because, without temples, it's the only place where Kongo can store relics (except for some wonders but wonders are never sure).
Kongo's CUA is very strong (at least IMO, but quicker GA, GW, GMu and GMe, atop from tremendous artifacts and sculptures, and the palace) BECAUSE the Mvemba's LUA is so "weak" (by "weak" I mean "having a malus"). Kongo is the first asymetrical civ in the game and was the only one until Mali, Maori, Canada and now the Mayas.
But now, if you give Kongo a new leader that can found a religion, Kongo would probably become OP because it would have it's OP CUA with a regular leader (and even an UP leader would work, the Netherlands are a very good civ despite the abysmal LUA of Wilhelmina).

Rather than a new leader, having the possibility to build holy sites BUT not earning Great Prophet points (ala Maoris) would be better IMO. But a brand new leader? It doubt they will do it because I doubt it will be in itself a good idea.

They need to buff Kongo somehow. It kept on getting nerfed hard.

 

[DWilson]

Maybe for Mvemba any Holy Site bonuses should apply to the Theater Square or Mbanzas

 

[Hans Castorp]

They need to buff Kongo somehow. It kept on getting nerfed hard.

But from a very strong starting point. Kongo has moved down the rankings, but not so far as to leave them as anything less than a very credible CV contender - not nearly so good as they were, but I don't see the need for a buff.

 

[GunsGermsandSteel]

I for one like the patch notes. Glad to see the beliefs are getting an update, many of these changes were warranted. The new work ethic is pretty cool. Was sad to see church property go. That was one of my has-a-religion-but-not-for-religious-victory go to picks. Looks like tithe will make up for it though, if you can get it.

 

[Peserwin]

Reading posts in this thread I am surprised many of you considering Work Ethic change a buff. In my playstyle it is a serious nerf. In a 10 city empire I'm eventually getting around 100-150 cogs from it (if I can trust Better Reports Mod) but now it cannot be achieved.

Having a holy site combined with desert folklore is easily 6 production. Then you can double the adjacency bonus, making it 12 production before medieval era. I would call that a buff

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Having a holy site combined with desert folklore is easily 6 production. Then you can double the adjacency bonus, making it 12 production before medieval era. I would call that a buff

And ramping it up with the old ability it takes a long long time. I liked it at one point but then finally filed it in "sounds better than it really is"

 

[HiRezAudio]

the most underwhelming patch notes i could imagine

Agreed.
It would have been really nice to know what bugs were fixed, for starters.

Wow, not a lot of religion fans here?!? That's surprising.
For me personally, the change to Work Ethic alone is enough reason to start a new game and then several more to try out the other buffed beliefs. I just really like faith based strategies and they all got buffed quite a bit.
Of course, I was hoping for more but my expectations were already low enough after the video.

Not a fan of religions at all, personally.
Way too much effort to keep one alive, even if I can get one (playing on Deity here) the AI constantly spams religious units almost nonstop yet I get all the grievances if I try to do something about it, and the penalties for cities that do not follow a user religion are severe beyond the point of bothering in the first place.
My worlds are always, always better without religion playing a part.

 

[Aurelesk]

But from a very strong starting point. Kongo has moved down the rankings, but not so far as to leave them as anything less than a very credible CV contender - not nearly so good as they were, but I don't see the need for a buff.

So, let Kongo have the opportunity to build Holy Site? The kongolese was supposed to be a Tall civilization (Mbanza: early Neighborhood) with no Faith (civopedia entry). With the Maori, we know that the team can prevent a Civilization to get specific Great People.
So they can modify the 'Religious Convert' ability for something like this:
Great Prophet cannot be earned. Shrines, Temples and Holy Site district's adjacencies provide Food instead of Faith. Building a Mbanza or Theater Square grants a free Apostle of the city's majority religion.

It is still not a good ability (just throwing ideas), but at least the Kongolese can enjoy some of the religious stuff.

The Kongolese fell for multiples reasons:

• Housing is easier to have, so the Neighborhood / Mbanza fell in disgrace.
• Early Writing rush was severely hit when their yield were halved, and now that +100% Tourism only work for base yield.
• Faith now have a bigger role for Cultural victory (Rock Band).
• Ngao Mbeba now requires Iron but isn't that much powerful than, let's say, the Toa.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Civ teams REALLY need to nerf AI Obession with soreading religion a bit.

Not a fan of religions at all, personally.
Way too much effort to keep one alive, even if I can get one (playing on Deity here) the AI constantly spams religious units almost nonstop yet I get all the grievances if I try to do something about it, and the penalties for cities that do not follow a user religion are severe beyond the point of bothering in the first place.
My woorlds are always, always better without religion playing a part - maybe the world in reality would likewise be a better place without the god botherers.

So does it mean Kongo is your favorite civ? Since you don't have to worry about religion at all?

 

[trev1972]

Do you have R&F+GS+NFP? I would imagine that AI patches going into vanilla wont make too much difference for vanilla "AI-wise". The AI is only improved significantly with the extra mechanics coming from the expansions IMO. I don't think they spend too much time for balancing "stripped-down" versions of the game.

I have everything except the NFP, including all the DLC

I am waiting for a bit more to be released before shelling out for that, it feels light on content for the price personally

I have always sort of loved civ, but things such as below really break immersion a tad

this is the sort of thing that breaks immersion for me, i mean- why?

 

[UWHabs]

So, let Kongo have the opportunity to build Holy Site? The kongolese was supposed to be a Tall civilization (Mbanza: early Neighborhood) with no Faith (civopedia entry). With the Maori, we know that the team can prevent a Civilization to get specific Great People.
So they can modify the 'Religious Convert' ability for something like this:
Great Prophet cannot be earned. Shrines, Temples and Holy Site district's adjacencies provide Food instead of Faith. Building a Mbanza or Theater Square grants a free Apostle of the city's majority religion.

It is still not a good ability (just throwing ideas), but at least the Kongolese can enjoy some of the religious stuff.

The Kongolese fell for multiples reasons:

• Housing is easier to have, so the Neighborhood / Mbanza fell in disgrace.
• Early Writing rush was severely hit when their yield were halved, and now that +100% Tourism only work for base yield.
• Faith now have a bigger role for Cultural victory (Rock Band).
• Ngao Mbeba now requires Iron but isn't that much powerful than, let's say, the Toa.

Those changes I think make more sense than how they currently work, especially the weird thing where if you capture a city a holy site those buildings magically get transported to the city-centre. Perhaps that's what they would have done if they created them after they created the Maori.

 

[trev1972]

Not a fan of religions at all, personally.
Way too much effort to keep one alive, even if I can get one (playing on Deity here) the AI constantly spams religious units almost nonstop yet I get all the grievances if I try to do something about it, and the penalties for cities that do not follow a user religion are severe beyond the point of bothering in the first place.
My woorlds are always, always better without religion playing a part - maybe the world in reality would likewise be a better place without the god botherers.

I kept my religion alive recently, but it is a pain, the AI just constantly spams apostle, and not a fan of religous combat

If i could turn it off, i would- although when i got lucky with religious rock and converted ghandis core cities i did find that amusing

 

[Atimati]

Regarding Work Ethic. Maybe you misunderstood me. I don't want to build a Holy Site in every city. As I said before by my playstyle I DO want to build ONLY ONE Holy Site if at all. With that in mind the old WE is much better than the new one.

 

[zyx]

That doesn't really do much to improve Cliffs of Dover. I mean I guess it's faith with earth goddess, but that's about it.

If at least this would provide a place for a national-park.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Religious Community Work Ethic is excellent lol. Look at this:



Three population city builds the Hanging Gardens in SEVEN turns. I was lucky to start in tundra hills as Russia but this is crazy. Oracle takes 12 turns in a five pop city. Currently beelining towards Reformed Church so I can build St Basil's too. Tundra Cities have never been better.

 

[bengalryan9]

Religious Community is excellent lol. Look at this:



Three population city builds the Hanging Gardens in SEVEN turns. I was lucky to start in tundra hills as Russia but this is crazy. Oracle takes 12 turns in a five pop city. Currently beelining towards Reformed Church so I can build St Basil's too. Tundra Cities have never been better.

You mean work ethic, right?

 

[Lord Lakely]

Yes, I do oops. I definitely do NOT mean Religious Community, which is actually garbage </3

I really like the changes to the tenets that provide science and culture per n followers. Makes those beliefs viable if you just want to go for Religion as a means to support your empire and not a win condition. I picked the Science one and I'm comfortably ahead of everyone else (on King) with only one Campus.

OT: this game is also the first time I got the Oracle + Bologna combo as Russia. I currently have more Great Writers (8) than I have cities (7)

 

[_hero_]

Reading posts in this thread I am surprised many of you considering Work Ethic change a buff. In my playstyle it is a serious nerf. In a 10 city empire I'm eventually getting around 100-150 cogs from it (if I can trust Better Reports Mod) but now it cannot be achieved.

The way I see it is that it is a buff to the early game and a nerf to the late game. However, Civ VI is very much a snowballing game so having a few extra hammers early significantly outweighs having a ton of extra hammers in the industrial era or later. Getting something like +6 hammers in your capital in the classical era might mean getting a few extra settlers out or being able to win a war much earlier due to extra unit production. 10-15 extra hammers in the information age in cities that already have 100 production means 1 turn faster on spaceship parts. The early boost means I probably got to spaceship technology significantly faster. I'll take the early boost any day.

 

[Aurelesk]

The way I see it is that it is a buff to the early game and a nerf to the late game. However, Civ VI is very much a snowballing game so having a few extra hammers early significantly outweighs having a ton of extra hammers in the industrial era or later. Getting something like +6 hammers in your capital in the classical era might mean getting a few extra settlers out or being able to win a war much earlier due to extra unit production. 10-15 extra hammers in the information age in cities that already have 100 production means 1 turn faster on spaceship parts. The early boost means I probably got to spaceship technology significantly faster. I'll take the early boost any day.

I don't know. The former didn't rely on Holy Site. You could have only 1 just for the religion, and convert all your civilization to it. You could end up to +15% Production in all your cities without "wasting" a district slot and delaying something (later Trader, delaying Science / Culture, GPP gathering or even a Industrial Zone).

Furthermore, the opportunity cost: if you are investing everything in it, sure it is going to be powerful. You can take a Holy Site adjacency Pantheon instead of something else, and slot the +100% adjacency to Holy Site card instead of something else. But what pantheon will you not pick or what card will you not slot?
(And you still have to convert all your cities to enjoy the bonus)

I do recognise the strength of the new version. At first, I found it even too powerful. But now, thinking more about it, they turn an overall good and consistant belief into a situational but with a lot of potential belief. I must admit I like the new one better: more strategic.

 

[XX36789]

They should have changed Pantheon beliefs so the free settler and builder ones are less op.