June 2020 Update - Patch Notes Discussion

[Carazycool]

I play on XBOX, and since the game updated, I can no longer edit exact amounts of gold, gpt, resources, etc., in the negotiation screen. It will only let me increase offers by 100 gold at a time or 10gpt at a time. And if I accidentally go over I have to delete it and start from 0 again.

this has to be a bug.

 

[JesseS]

I don't know. The former didn't rely on Holy Site. You could have only 1 just for the religion, and convert all your civilization to it. You could end up to +15% Production in all your cities without "wasting" a district slot and delaying something (later Trader, delaying Science / Culture, GPP gathering or even a Industrial Zone).

Theoretically, I can see that, but it seems difficult to actually keep your own religion around with just 1 holy site. The AI loves spamming missionaries and apostles and where's your faith generation to keep all of your cities converted? Maybe it works if you take Earth Goddess and Religious Colonization.

Also, +15% production requires 15 followers (so maybe 17-20 total population). By the time your cities get that large (if they ever do), most of them should probably just work projects and additional production isn't nearly as important. For most of the game and most of your cities, you're probably looking at more like +3-7% production under the old rules. Even if you're not designing your game around maximizing the new Work Ethic, and just getting some holy sites where you have good adjacency as a 3rd district, I think the math still shows the new Work Ethic to work better.

For example:

• A pop 7 city, working tiles with an average yield of +2f/+3p (a post-craftsmanship grassland mine) has a base production of 21. If 5/7 of the population are followers, you get a whopping +1 production under the old rule. Under the new rule, you break-even with this total production by building a +3 holy site in one-third of your cities (without running the +100% adjacency card).
• A pop 10 city, working tiles with an average yield of +2f/+4p (a post-industrialization grassland mine) and 7/10 followers, got +2.8 production under the old rule. Under the new rule, to break-even with this production, you need to build a +3 holy site in half your cities and using the 100% adjacency card.

Basically, the ceiling on how much production Work Ethic can provide has gone way up with this change, at least early on when production is very useful. Meanwhile, relatively passive use of its benefit makes you break-even with the overall production provided under the old rules and front-loads the benefits. The question now is how does the AI prioritize it?

 

[Aurelesk]

I think the math still shows the new Work Ethic to work better.

It works differently.

IF you tend to have cities with low population and IF you tend to build Holy Site early in cities THEN the new Work Ethic works better. Yes, if we see it that way, I cannot disagree: it works better that way.

The old one suited best for tall players in casual play wanting to build some wonders. It was the only belief that worked best for that type of players. Sure, that type of playing isn't the most competitive. I agree that the new Work Ethic works better for competitive play (like: a lot of low population cities). But is Work Ethic the best belief for that competitive play? I don't think so: Choral Music / Feed the World is.

Don't get me wrong: I like the new one better. But it isn't better in all circonstances: the old one was mostly for tall players and the new one fit better on some early push, niche play or high focus.

 

[Jewman]

the new work ethic is too incredible. I dont think i can ever play again without founding a religion with work ethic. Two games in a row my cities are just pumping projects on loop by renaissance because they have produced everything possible.

First game i went for a quick religious victory with brazil and rainforest adjacencies + work ethic. My first four cities had 16 production holy sites up extremely early (beelining theology is the move now) I could have won the game with every victory type but opted to end it quickly with religion.

Second game, ongoing, playing as mali desert adjacency + work ethic, i kind of highrolled hitting a turn 1 relic and a decently sized desert around me. I have spammed tons of cities and even seemingly useless cities are still hitting 7 pop (gurdwaras are insane) and putting down 3 districts fairly quickly.

This "Small" patch may be one of the biggest ever lol

 

[acluewithout]

I’m not convinced Work Ethic is really that big a deal. To make it work, you really need to invest in the right Civ, right pantheon and right Policy Card, plus Foundinf a Religion, choosing WE instead of something else, and maintaining the Religion in your City. After all that, it then runs into the same problem as IZs - what exactly are you going to do with all that production?

So far, I thinks it’s a really solid change, but I don’t think anyone needs to lose their minds.

I’m liking the changes to Cross Cultural Dialogue and World Church more. You are sort of more incentivised to spread your Religion to others than you were before, because the number of Followers you need to get Science and Culture has gone down (I hadn’t realised that before).

I do still feel the changes make the game more “flat”, and I don’t like that at all. But it does certainly feel more satisfying Founding a Religion, and that’s good. I also think having a Religion spread to you will be more significant as most of the Follower beliefs are now quite good.

Good times. Although, you know, Monks still suck.

 

[kaspergm]

I’m liking the changes to Cross Cultural Dialogue and World Church more. You are sort of more incentivised to spread your Religion to others than you were before, because the number of Followers you need to get Science and Culture has gone down (I hadn’t realised that before).

Those changes are indeed quite massive.

 

[bengalryan9]

I’m not convinced Work Ethic is really that big a deal. To make it work, you really need to invest in the right Civ, right pantheon and right Policy Card, plus Foundinf a Religion, choosing WE instead of something else, and maintaining the Religion in your City. After all that, it then runs into the same problem as IZs - what exactly are you going to do with all that production?

So far, I thinks it’s a really solid change, but I don’t think anyone needs to lose their minds.

I’m liking the changes to Cross Cultural Dialogue and World Church more. You are sort of more incentivised to spread your Religion to others than you were before, because the number of Followers you need to get Science and Culture has gone down (I hadn’t realised that before).

I do still feel the changes make the game more “flat”, and I don’t like that at all. But it does certainly feel more satisfying Founding a Religion, and that’s good. I also think having a Religion spread to you will be more significant as most of the Follower beliefs are now quite good.

Good times. Although, you know, Monks still suck.

One thing I think people forget sometimes is that if you do spread your religion you're also spreading the benefit of things like Work Ethic as well. If you want to maximize your advantage from Cross Cultural Dialogue or Tithe, for example, you're also sharing the advantages of Work Ethic or Choral Music with them as well. That extra production or culture doesn't mean as much when all my neighbors also have it (or, even worse, they're taking advantage of it more than I am).

This leads to a choice on the player's part and that's not a bad thing.

 

[trev1972]

Reading this, i am amazed people keep and spread their religion so often, i did keep my religion when i tried saladin (it was too beneficial) but otherwise i get tired of dealing with the constant apostle spam

 

[Revanchist]

Whether or not the developers intended for work ethic to be affected by adjacency bonus cards, work ethic should have a cap at some point. Civilizations like Russia that already benefited from strong adjacency bonuses are even stronger. Religions should fill a unique role and be powerful at that, but they also need to be balanced.

 

[Josephias]

Reading this, i am amazed people keep and spread their religion so often, i did keep my religion when i tried saladin (it was too beneficial) but otherwise i get tired of dealing with the constant apostle spam

Actually, is a bit of a chore, if not going for RV, you can manage moreless well with two-three well placed apostle groups, but it is still quite boring.

I value in Civ VI they tried to make something active and interesting for religion, but it didn’t quite right work. Civ VII will need a new strategy.

 

[iammaxhailme]

Work ethic intensifies

 

[The Civs 6]

Russia is now the best civ in the game

 

[Kwami]

Russia is now the best civ in the game

Russia was probably already the best civ in the game. Maybe top 2 with Grand Colombia.

 

[Myomoto]

Russia is now the best civ in the game

They were pretty much the best Civ in the game since release?

 

[leandrombraz]

Reading this, i am amazed people keep and spread their religion so often, i did keep my religion when i tried saladin (it was too beneficial) but otherwise i get tired of dealing with the constant apostle spam

The AI usually focus on converting cities that still don't have a religion and it has an addiction to converting city-states, so most of the time the AI send apostles to your territory, they are merely passing to go somewhere else, unless you have some unconverted cities. Only in late game that the AI really go full on conversion mode and start targeting your converted cities. For players that win early, that rarely happens, since the game ends before the AI goes into "I gonna win this thing" mode. I just ignore the spam, unless I want to kill their units to spread my own religion. If I'm actually being targeted, some well positioned Inquisitors and Debaters is enough to catch the AI apostle in my units ZoC, then I just let the AI do the heavy lifting and attack my units, while I only care about healing them, which you don't need to worry about if the religious units is in or next to a Holy Site.

 

[Kmart_Elvis]

Russia is now the best civ in the game

Not just because of work ethic, but Pagodas too. Russia is now incredible at diplo victory. Get that classical golden age and grab Monumentality. Spam settlers and create work ethic lavras in every city. Buy pagodas with all your faith. I have at least 8 Pagodas by turn 100, and I have more on the way.

Science is probably their weakest route now, but they can still pull it off. They are top tier for religious, cultural, and Diplomatic victory, and they're really good at domination too if you don't mind the later start.

 

[Lemon Merchant]

I got the game free from Epic games and I just received the June patch...

Has anyone with the Epic version had the launcher flagged as ransomware by their anti-virus? I'm not too concerned and I bypassed the lockout, but I just found it weird and wondered if it happened to anyone else.

 

[trev1972]

I have played a couple of full games since the patch, am i imagining it or am i get a LOT more tornadoes etc, even on setting '2'?

 

[Basajaun]

Not just because of work ethic, but Pagodas too. Russia is now incredible at diplo victory. Get that classical golden age and grab Monumentality. Spam settlers and create work ethic lavras in every city. Buy pagodas with all your faith. I have at least 8 Pagodas by turn 100, and I have more on the way.

Science is probably their weakest route now, but they can still pull it off. They are top tier for religious, cultural, and Diplomatic victory, and they're really good at domination too if you don't mind the later start.

I have just cut 60 turns from my usual T390-400 SV epic speed with Peter and this combo. Unfortunately, my +7 Holy site was pillaged by a blizzard so it lost the production bonus even after repair (a bug), so it could have been even faster. Also I built a bit too many theater squares because I was feeling bad seeing all those writers and musicians freezing in the tundra

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Russia is now the best civ in the game

It already was. They NEVER nerfed Russia but it kept on getting boosted... even when they touched nothig on its actual civ ability.