Just a random map

[Pedro78]

@Rusten a few questions mostly

Spoiler :

• What was your reasoning for not settling Notthingam 1SE of its current position? Are you going to build a wb here?
• With IW immediately available, do you think it's more profitable to build granaries + some libraries in your core cities than just expanding into the rich jungle lands? - especially as you would be able to work London's gold with an other city?

To everyone, what kind of war do you think is the most profitable here? I've read Imploding's spoilers and it seems that - even though the game is in the bag - you're extremely late in tech (considering the start). I don't like capturing a lot of jungle cities early, but I also don't like waiting until T130-135 to launch a Cuir war. What do you think is the sweet spot?

I'll probably never finish this game, but I'll play around to experiment stuff. I think there will be a lot to learn from this thread. Already interesting (and fun) to see BiC's different approach.[/SPOILER][/SPOILER]

 

[Rusten]

@ BIC

Spoiler :

Not sure I agree with your assessment on Alphabet beeline. You still get 1800 BC granaries with the beeline because you can trade so early. Furthermore, I don't think this is a map to bank gold -- early currency adds trade routes immediately. That added commerce beats out library modifiers, and with so many AIs around you can sell techs for money to fuel the slider. Early alphabet into early currency is a big boost.

IMO the strongest opening would be to settle on the PH and beelining Alphabet. Having the horse tile adds a lot (couldn't know that was there), but I think it's stronger overall after having thought more about it.

 

[Imploding]

As for the screenshots and army. You upgraded warriors ??? Isn't that like the most costly thing ever ?

Yes.. warriors upgraded to maces. It was crazy expensive! The 3400 gold I had saved up evaporated! Would not recommend..
That sort of investment should ensure to cap 2-3 Ai's.. not one.. after a while.

BiC nice Rexing! Also find it interesting that you have saved up so much gold. But waiting for libraries is a good move I guess.

@Rusten
I'm looking forward to seeing what sort of position you get with your alpha beeling! Especially the trades you did with it. really interesting to compare your game with BiC.
Never really tried to much of the alpha beelining myself..

 

[Rusten]

@Rusten a few questions mostly

Spoiler :

• What was your reasoning for not settling Notthingam 1SE of its current position? Are you going to build a wb here?
• With IW immediately available, do you think it's more profitable to build granaries + some libraries in your core cities than just expanding into the rich jungle lands? - especially as you would be able to work London's gold with an other city?

Spoiler :

-Settling on the jungle saves worker turns. WB is placeholder for 1T -- granary first.
-More tiles to work later.
-York already overlaps a lot with London, and so will pig+banana.
-City was settled as London reached 100 culture, which meant that the sheep was available immediately (if this city was settled first it would be on the hill for sure).

Don't think any choice is much stronger than the other -- pretty close, but with different strengths. I could go either way.

Can't expand into jungle yet IMO, even with IW. It costs so many worker turns. Working London gold with another city is not important due to Nottingham placement.

 

[dutchfire]

That jungle city will need a lot of time to become worthwile, might have been easier to capture it with macemen.

 

[Pedro78]

Not playing anymore (no time) but following with interest.

Warwick will be connected with a border pop, no need for workforce over there.

It's already connected, look at the sign

 

[Rusten]

Our games differ a bit at 1000 BC as expected. I also settled double fish at that time. You are 1 city ahead, but way behind on settling the island city. Not having sailing really hurts you in that regard as I settled it not long after 1000 BC. I was able to swap to caste+HR when I settled the two fishing villages (for quick development). This also sped up my first GS (or rather, I had prioritised the scientists less as I knew caste was coming anyway), and then I swapped back into slavery together with CS later. Harmonic development and with only 2T of anarchy.

I was fortunate to be able to trade for CoL right after currency.

Did you notice anything in particular about Carthage? Or maybe things have changed in your game as we settled in different spots.

 

[Rusten]

I agree that the philosophy path is very uninspired -- you have better. Bulbing MC seems to be the play. Gets you in the trading game and towards a military tech at the same time. The only problem is that if you trade it to your other neighbours they are closer to crossbows also. But if you can trade for something only MM has and give away that instead it will be a resounding success.

I won't spoil anything in regards to Carthage. I will keep you guessing.

 

[Rusten]

Hey, at least now you will want to play on, right? Need to knooooooooooooow.....

 

[Pedro78]

I don't understand the logic behind the MC bulb. It costs a GM for only 3-4 turns of research (after Academy you should be doing ~150bpt right?). If you desperately need Alpha why not self-tech it?

 

[Rusten]

You're getting a lot more infrastructure than I am. Forges are very expensive for a macemen war. You don't get the investment back until you've whipped 7 of them. I prefer getting the cities earlier and regaining the hammers that way, but maybe you have no choice as you don't have metal for a long time. There are preparation tricks like having an axeman whipped at 70H which turns into macemen upon tech discovery etc. I can tell already at 900 BC that your attack date will be later than mine.

This all assumes that you did not pose a trick question.

What was your reasoning for not settling Nottingham 1NW again? IMO a 4F clam tile is more useful in Nottingham city than a 5F one in Warwick.

edit: Definitely want the forge in London though.

 

[Rusten]

But if Nottingham is relegated to a helper role, does it really need the forge? I'd skeleton that city. If it's growing cottages it is not generating a lot of hammers. It doesn't have a food resource so it's never going to be particularly produtive.

I'm more curious about your thoughts than saying I have the answer. I used to always get forges everywhere (holy trinity of granary+forge+barracks - whipwhipwhip), but as time has passed I'm skipping more and more infrastructure.

 

[Fippy]

I like forges in higher food cities, they either can whip lots and make good use of the hammer bonus over time or are in need of extra happy.
In cities with low growth potential forges are weak buildings imo (ofc everything changes with SP, but then it's also much easier to build them).

 

[Pedro78]

Hmmm... I don't like all the civic switches but maybe a switch to Caste+Paci instead of Bureau, then get a GP, golden age, lib Cuirs. This way you'll get control of the whole mainland waaay quicker than with macemen. You could Lib MT in the BCs and you won't have to build many units in the beggining to take Willem out. I don't see how macemen could possibly be superior to this, but maybe you'll prove me wrong

 

[Rusten]

He can't prove you wrong if there's no counter-example, so get playing.

Not crazy about cuirassiers on a map with multiple ivory tiles and where his cities are all on hills. Can choose to attack someone else, but they might obtain it through trade.
Maces are slower, but they also attack sooner and are more cost-effective.

Cuirassiers are very good for domination/conquest, but its on/off bursty playstyle has drawbacks if pursuing a VC like space (not sure if BIC is pursuing this though).

 

[Pedro78]

Not crazy about cuirassiers on a map with multiple ivory tiles and where his cities are all on hills.

If you attack on say T125 (probably earlier) with Cuirs I don't think this is a big concern as Willy won't have many units yet

Cuirassiers are very good for domination/conquest, but its on/off bursty playstyle has drawbacks if pursuing a VC like space (not sure if BIC is pursuing this though)

But if you're going for space you want to expand to ~50 cities ASAP and I can't see anything better than (very) early cuirs for this. Macemen+Cats are slow and you'll probably lose many units, unless you attack on ~T90 but attacking so early is questionable given the available land to settle. You'll lose cuirs aswell but things would be so much faster and smoother - with maces you'll only take out one AI, how do you plan to get 50 cities later on, Cannons are slow and Cuirs become very costly later on..

He can't prove you wrong if there's no counter-example, so get playing.

I'll get to it in ~2 weeks when I have some (more) free time. Another problem is I've already seen many spoilers and don't feel like playing another 50h game for a while, but I'll try give it a decent shot.

A bit OT but I feel like the better I get at Civ 4, the slower I play. Cannot play a 10 hour game anymore and feel good about it, even on a Pangaea. In every game I now see so many more options than I used to, it's both annoying and fascinating. And this thread definitely has food for thought

 

[elitetroops]

But if you're going for space you want to expand to ~50 cities ASAP and I can't see anything better than (very) early cuirs for this. Macemen+Cats are slow and you'll probably lose many units, unless you attack on ~T90 but attacking so early is questionable given the available land to settle. You'll lose cuirs aswell but things would be so much faster and smoother - with maces you'll only take out one AI, how do you plan to get 50 cities later on, Cannons are slow and Cuirs become very costly later on..

MT is not needed to launch a spaceship, and it's a big diversion on the way to corps or SP, so cuirs are always questionable in a space game. Especially using lib to get them.

 

[Fippy]

Hiya BiC,
i think teching Aest would work well with bulbing Philo, better than putting some beakers into CS for Mansa trade.
With no AI knowing it yet, you would get great value and Mansa should accept Aest + Philo for CS

Another option would be teching hbr, while maces are a bit stronger Jumbos are also very nice to have.
Only 1 AI has hbr so far, could also be used for the CS trade if you go that way.

 

[Fippy]

Glad i could be of some help
It's not easy with the switches currently for sure hmm, think i agree with what you wrote and adding Paci with Bur. would just cost gold for now.

I wonder how likely any of those AIs could be faster to music?
Probably rather safe unless Mansa suddenly goes there, you should pick up Poly for Literature in some trade. Music for machinery trade with Mansa would be great, yup.
Strong reason to chase music imo, really good for trades and an extra GP is usually worth more than the research cost anyways.

 

[Fippy]

I would not do 0% research turns anymore now, while it's not super likely that an AI goes for Lit or Drama soon it can certainly happen, and you might be glad about any beakers you have already then.
Gold seems enuf possible on the trade table, many AIs lacking this or that, so i would certainly stay at 100% research from now on.