Katanas - Best sword ever or utter crap?

Aroddo

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What fanboys think:
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Reality:
katana-vs-broadsword.gif


Katanas are incredibly popular thanks to hollywood and anime. But how well do they stand up to their reputation?

Well, some historical and geographical facts. Japan is an island and was thus more isolated than the tribes of europe. And besides, they prefered it that way, which led to a technologically backward society (we're talking medieval times here). Also, through no fault of their own, their iron ore sucked, which is why they starting importing high quality iron from the 16th century onward.

All this combined led to inferiour steel and inferiour sword smithing techniques. 'Hold on'', you say, 'japanese swordsmithing techniques are widely renowned and they folded their swords dozens of times and have an incredibly sharp edge'.
Yes, all true. However the ancient celts knew that technique, too, and produced swords of similiar quality ... in 300 BC! And unlike the japanese, there are no celts around to brag about it.
And a sharp edge is great against straw mats and peasants, but utterly useless against any kind of metal armor. one smack and sharp gets blunt, which is why european longswords were build for durability, penetration- and clubbing-the-bastard-to-death power.

A particulary emphatic and amusing analysis of the katana can be seen here:

Link to video.
I recommend all his videos about ancient and medieval weapons btw. as well as his rants about the various D&D systems. Good watch.

If you wish to see a slightly slanted comparison between longsword and broadsword (and can stomach the redneck accents), you might enjoy this:

Link to video.
judge for yourself if their tests are anywhere near to conclusive. their approach to proving how great the katana is would make the Mythbusters laugh their asses off.

But in the end, this says it all (scroll to 5:56 or click this link to see the relevant part):

Link to video.
So much for "Katanas can cut through enemy swords and machine gun barrels". Although the first part is true if the enemy is stupid enough to carry a katana.

So, why is the Katana so much worse than it's reputation?
Well, the Longsword was an actual weapon of war, where the opponent is often carrying shields and wears chainmail or even platemail. Getting your sword bent out of shape in the middle of the battle won't cut it.
The Katana reached it's current form in the 17th century - a time where japan was largely pacified and no large internal battles between armored soldiers were fought anymore, meaning that the Katana almost never came into contact with metal armor.
The prime use of the Katana was as a dueling weapon against unarmored duelists and helpless peasants, against which the Katana and it's extreme sharpness excelled.

I know this post won't stop animes or movies with katanas cutting stones, cars or knights in half from getting made, but boy ... this Katana-fandom crap gets so on my nerves...


Link to video.
 

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Different styles of fighting lead to the development of different weapon styles. And, as with all things, different weapons are good at killing people different ways.
Nothing particuarly revolutionary here.

EDIT: I didn't see this bit here:
one smack and sharp gets blunt, which is why european longswords were build for durability, penetration- and clubbing-the-bastard-to-death power.
The funny thing is that European swords weren't designed for that either! When two fully armor knights were fighting on foot with swords, the most common fighting style was to use the swords as massive crowbars and wrestle the person to the ground where you can slide a small blade through the weak spots in their armor. Bashing at a plate armored man with your sword was an excellent way to ruin it.
 
They're good for slashing and cutting, not smashing. I figure curved blades originate in places that are traditionally lacking in easy to obtain iron so most warring people probably focus what metals they can find into weapons and settle with layered cloth and leather as armor. You can see this in European warfare. Their weapons aren't really sharp as they're more of a hacking and smashing weapon, designed to smash through metal armor and shields.
 
Incredible op, I'm rating this thread 5.

I never knew the katana was actually inferior in almost every conceivable way to the European longswords. That's pretty funny.
 
The katana, while a fine sword, is somewhat fragile. Longswords are superior. Neither should be swung at any hard armor.
 
Katanas definitely cater more to the "rule of cool" than reality. And while cool, I agree that the popularity of the sword is often a bit ridiculous. Although they were good swords for the specific needs of Japanese culture.

To add to your post, due to the highly ritualized nature of the katana the samurai also spent a lot of time taking care of them (which they more or less required).
 
The Katana reached it's current form in the 17th century - a time where japan was largely pacified and no large internal battles between armored soldiers were fought anymore, meaning that the Katana almost never came into contact with metal armor.
The prime use of the Katana was as a dueling weapon against unarmored duelists and helpless peasants, against which the Katana and it's extreme sharpness excelled.
...meaning it did what it was meant to do exceedingly well.
But I can sympathize with your sentiment :)
 
Not utter crap. We shouldn't swing from one extreme (OMFG ! Katanas are awesoem !) to the other, but traditional European weapons and martial arts surely deserve more attention than they got last century.
Fortunately, this is changing and there are attempts by enthusiasts to revive historical European swordfighting based on manuals from the middle ages. People who are interested in this kind of stuff should really watch Reclaiming the Blade. There's also some pretty cool youtube videos, like this one:


Link to video.
 
regarding longsword fencing, i fancied this video:

Link to video.
They start with basic stuff and move on to some really cool counters, like the one at 1:22.
By the way, the german stuff on the slides is barely understandable even for native germans. :)
too many archaic technical terms.
 
Well, I'm utterly convinced. 13 Assassins wouldn't have been as cool with Euro style longswords though.
 
Aren't those Turkish Kilic's superior to both Katana's and Medieval European Longswords in terms of killing power?
 
EDIT: I didn't see this bit here:

The funny thing is that European swords weren't designed for that either! When two fully armor knights were fighting on foot with swords, the most common fighting style was to use the swords as massive crowbars and wrestle the person to the ground where you can slide a small blade through the weak spots in their armor. Bashing at a plate armored man with your sword was an excellent way to ruin it.

Absolutely true. Although the longsword would survive a hit against armor, the best way to crack open a knight was using a warhammer or something.
However, there are actually longsword techniques that involve gripping the blade and clubbing the knight with the steel guard for massive head trauma. :)

Aren't those Turkish Kilic's superior to both Katana's and Medieval European Longswords in terms of killing power?
Well, a sabre-like weapon like the kilic offers different sword techniques, although it's debatable if it's killing power is superior. Straight blades would do better against plate armor, I'd imagine.
Anyway, even the older japanese swords were superior to the katana in actual wars. Although their steel still sucked. Turkish steel was definetely better than that Tamahagane stuff.
 
Knights and lords in Medieval Europe were also possible jackpots of wealth if captured and ransomed (successfully), so you don't always want to kill your opponent, easily anyway. And if you did want to kill them obviously you still could.
 
The Longsword in the video with the hick sergeant looked like it was made of aluminium, no way it'd flop like that in real life
 
Hahaha :lol:

I've never been a katana fanatic by any stretch (and really, seeing so many Japanese fanboys around makes me resent the Japanese culture, even though I know it's an unfair knee-jerk reaction), but this thread has cured me of any traces there might have been.

I knew that the Japanese swords were meant to be used differently than European swords, but I always considered them largely equivalent, as in "the Japanese go for quality, the Europeans go for quantity and durability". Now I know the Europeans were better even where the Japanese were supposed to have an edge (pun intended) :goodjob:

(plus, I've just decided to learn the basics of swordfighting. You never know when a timespace anomaly throws you into the middle ages... :mischief: )
 
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