Keeping the Game Challenging

[JosEPh_II]

Here is a rough timeline of an ideal C2C game where its challenging throughout the game. Note that all games can deviate from this in their own way. However this timeline is made to help us tweak the game so to bring some challenge even in late game.

Note the important game setting for this are;

- Perfect World 2f - So you can have an old world and a new world plus realistic map generation.

Any map should be able to be used. And any size. I use various types and generally Huge or Giant with no more than 12 AI. Note I do not use Earth type maps. Nor should they be proclaimed as "necessary" for a balanced and challenging game. That's fine for a scenario but not for balance or challenge.

As for timeline that's just the flow of any game no matter the set up for this mod. Most of these you will encounter as it is the very structuring of the tech tree that dictates most of it, with noted exceptions.

Like SO posted you have to try combinations. The screen shots are the options I selected for my current game. (They are not all shown as you can only post 3 screenies at a time. If you know how to post more please tell me.)

Of course you will notice that I did not select or turn On the following: REV, City Limits, FB, Realistic Cultures (they are broken as DH has reported), Vassals, Inquisitions, Limited Religion, Unlimited XP, Start as Minor, or Barb Civ. I do use but not this time Barb World the Option that places 1 barb city for every AI put into the game. That option ensure the presence of Barbs in the early game. But it can be used by player and AI as a means of "getting ahead" of the competition by capturing one (or more) early before tribalism.

I know this isn't exactly what you wanted Hydro. But I just couldn't figure out how to make it "copy" your example.

- Minor Civ - So you start out at war with all other civs and have to work up to peace.

- Revolutions On - So its harder to keep larger empires.

- Usable Mountains - So they can be barriers in the beginning of the game and not later.

- Terrain Damage - So Polar and Arid terrain types can block movement through damage.

Again none of these are required for a balanced and challenging game.

Now for the Era breakdown ...

Early Prehistoric
- One City with Slow Growth
- Cannot Found other Cities
- Animals and Neanderthals are Dangerous
- Hard to Keep a City Healthy and/or Happy
- Cannot Conduct Diplomacy

All this is already in place. And can not really be changed without serious xml work so is therefore irrelevant. With One exception, 1st time contact. Other than that the AI does not contact you. You Can contact them but for what good reason?

Late Prehistoric
- Limit of 3 to 6 Cities
- Land Grabs
- Thieves and Rogues
- Still Cannot Conduct Diplomacy
- Risk of Revolution from Over Expansion
- Barbarians Cities
- Possible Grab for a Religion
- First Sea Exploration and/or Expansion
- Key Resources of Horse / Camels / Elephants

You can not get more than than 6 cities 99% of the time anyway even w/o artificial limits during this timeframe (City Limits). Believe me I try real hard to do so.
Rev is not needed to curtail "over expansion". I repeat there is no real over expansion in this time frame. Mod just does not allow it with current food and build restrictions that have been built in. The rest happens anyway.

Ancient
- Limit of 6 to 10 cities
- Still Land Grabs (depends upon map size)
- Can finally conduct Diplomacy
- Boost from Farming
- Still Thieves and Rogues
- Still Barbs unless all land has been Grabbed
- Risk of Revolution from Over Expansion
- Grab for a Religion
- Possible Sea Warfare
- Fight Disease and Plagues
- Key Resource of Copper

By the time you start Ancient Era you may have your 4th city and if real lucky the 5th City. So again getting past 10 takes extreme effort, not impossible but extreme effort.
All the rest is again irrelevant to a challenging an balanced game. Yes, you're trying for a religion and trying to have copper and/or obsidian before this era is over.

Classical
- Limit of 12 to Unlimited cities
- Late Grab for a Religion
- Possible Religious Wars
- Still Rogue Type Units.
- Possible Wars Over Land
- Possible Sea Warfare
- Fight Disease and Plagues
- Key Resource of Iron

By this time major borders "can be" forming and keeping vigilant border watch for rogue type units necessary. Again this list is not necessary for a balanced and challenging game. Keeping the AI competitive IS necessary. Using the OP's proposed must have settings go against this.

Medieval
- Wars Over Land since you cannot leave the Old world yet.
- Still Rogue Type Units.
- Possible Sea Warfare
- Fight Disease and Plagues

1st point:Only relevant to PF2 or earth type map. Non factor for all other maps as you may still be exploring, especially with maps that require naval tech to expand. That Is more challenging. And is better balanced in that the AI may have been isolated for the early Eras and has had no outside pressure to go all "warlike" and has actually built a good empire and has kept up with research and religion founding.

Rest is what you would have any way.

Renaissance
- Can finally leave the Old World and explore the New World
- Land Grab for New World
- Risk of Revolution from New World Colonies
- Still Rogue Type Units.
- New Barbarian and/or New Civs
- Ocean Sea Animals (ex. Giant Squids)
- Can Pass Over Mountains
- First Air Units
- Key Resource of Sulphur

1st point:
Only relevant to earth type map again.
3rd: Only relevant for using REV
And neither is necessary for a balanced and challenging game. And yes this Is repetitive. Game balance and Challenge just does not hinge on REV and City Limits nor Start as Minors.

What does hinge on balance and challenge is giving the AI a chance at developing into a healthy and viable Empire. None of those settings/options are conducive to getting a healthy competitive AI from my experience.

Industrial
- Race for Electricity and Significant Production Boost
- Still Rogue Type Units.
- Possible Still land Grabbing New World areas.
- Risk of Revolution from New World Colonies
- Threat of uncontrollable Air and Water Pollution
- Key Resource of Coal

Modern
- Threat of Nuclear War
- Threat of Air and Water Pollution
- Threat of Global Warming
- First Space and Lunar Exploration
- Key Resources of Oil and Uranium

Trans-Human
- Threat of Air and Water Pollution
- Threat of Global Warming
- Can Finally leave the Planet
- Land Grab of Lunar Terrain
- Risk of Revolution from Off-world Colonies

Early Galactic
- Can Terraform and reverse Global Warming and Pollution
- Land Grab for Asteroid Mining
- Land Grab for Mars Terrain
- Risk of Revolution from Off-world Colonies

Late Galactic
- Can Finally Leave the Solar System
- Land Grab for Galactic Territory
- Risk of Revolution from Off-world Colonies
- End Game Alien Invasion
- Can Travel through Wormholes and Foldspace
- Race for Final Achievements such as Ascension Gates and Trans-Dimensional Ships

So as you can see at any point you could become a powerhouse and steamroll other civs. The post at risk seems to be the Medieval era since there is not always a place to expand to. Hopefully things like the disease system can balance things out in this era and cause larger cities to get plagues and stuff to put the breaks on their steamroller so other civs can catch up and still be around for later eras.

Note if you do manage to take over all the old world then there is at least the new world. However I think to make the game have longevity the over seas colonies will need to be harder to maintain. Be it maintenance and/or revolutions. Same goes for the later expansions to the Moon, Mars and beyond.

Fine advice for this particular scenario.

Please give your feedback on how to keep the game challenging throughout the course of the game.

1.Stop handcuffing the AI with needless restrictions.
2.Stop recommending that the mod can only be played "this" way. Right there you unbalance the Mod from the start.
3.Do not overcrowd the map you are playing.
4.If you want the game to reach later eras you Must curb your war like tendencies and be a diplomat. Don't worry the AI will bring War to you. You'll get to fight. But trying to Not steamroll the AI will get you to the later eras and it Will be a great challenge just to do that. But not necessarily as "exciting" or "fast paced" as many players need or want.
5. You will never balance the Mod for the player that is looking for and uses every "edge" they can find. We have no AI that can compete with that type player. A player that is willing to handicap himself will have a more challenging game and can find balance for himself.


I thought hard about this and seriously I feel this is not a template to use for balance and challenge. But it would make a Good Scenario. And as such you would get many players to use it. But you will not get what you propose you will from it. Unless you Force everyone to play exactly this way. And That would be bad.

JosEPh

 

[Randomness]

I have to agree with Joseph. Although I use most of the "suggested" settings, they should not be mandatory for balance. If an option is not meant to be fully balanced, it should not exist (or at least be hidden). Also, somewhat OT but, I think it would be great to have a scenario to showcase each era (especially Renascence and beyond) once the eras are fully fleshed out and balanced.

 

[Hydromancerx]

If you know how to post more please tell me.)

After you upload 3 you can go back and post 3 more. You can also add images even after you post your post. Same goes for removing any attachments if you for whatever reason want them removed.

Again none of these are required for a balanced and challenging game.

Note I said "ideal" which is what I personally think would be an ideal game. Settings like terrain damage and revolutions I personally like. Which is why I was asking how you would do it rather than just looking at mine and saying "yuck I don't like your settings".

I know this isn't exactly what you wanted Hydro. But I just couldn't figure out how to make it "copy" your example.

I think your missing the point. I was asking how you would play, not what you dislike about the way I would play.

1.Stop handcuffing the AI with needless restrictions.
2.Stop recommending that the mod can only be played "this" way. Right there you unbalance the Mod from the start.
3.Do not overcrowd the map you are playing.
4.If you want the game to reach later eras you Must curb your war like tendencies and be a diplomat. Don't worry the AI will bring War to you. You'll get to fight. But trying to Not steamroll the AI will get you to the later eras and it Will be a great challenge just to do that. But not necessarily as "exciting" or "fast paced" as many players need or want.
5. You will never balance the Mod for the player that is looking for and uses every "edge" they can find. We have no AI that can compete with that type player. A player that is willing to handicap himself will have a more challenging game and can find balance for himself.

1. I would not be opposed to the AI getting stuff that the player doesn't to help it out. However all the AI improvements that have been added sure have helped a lot from making the AI not do stupid things and still stay competitive.

2. I don't think I have ever said that the mod can only be played a specific way. I have however posted my favorite settings and which I personally like. But you too have expressed for feeling about no Revolutions is your way to play.

3. I agree with this. However some people like more crowded maps. But I find maps with fewer players allows for longer hunting.

4. I also agree with this. I have on many occasions curbed my wars. I have also noticed if you take out the most powerful civ that the games end shorter. However if you target the weaker civs the games can last longer and you can still have war (if you like wars).

5. The optimist in me says no to that. Not because its not true but because perhaps we could make the AI more competitive. Especially if the AI can "cheat" and get boosts that the player cannot. Where we can out think the AI the AI could get extras to compensate for this. However I think just better AI can always help too.

I thought hard about this and seriously I feel this is not a template to use for balance and challenge. But it would make a Good Scenario. And as such you would get many players to use it. But you will not get what you propose you will from it. Unless you Force everyone to play exactly this way. And That would be bad.

Well the issues stated are to keep the player from steamrolling and less about the AI steamrolling.

I have to agree with Joseph. Although I use most of the "suggested" settings, they should not be mandatory for balance. If an option is not meant to be fully balanced, it should not exist (or at least be hidden). Also, somewhat OT but, I think it would be great to have a scenario to showcase each era (especially Renascence and beyond) once the eras are fully fleshed out and balanced.

I did not suggest any of these setting would be mandatory. I was only stating the important setting for my "ideal game". If I did not state them than things like revolutions and old world would not make sense to list.

I also disagree with taking out options if they are not balanced. For instance having unlimited Wonders is not balanced but people like that setting. Likewise some combos of settings become unbalanced but on their own they are.

I think Joe would agree that options are a good thing.

 

[Little Abigail]

5. The optimist in me says no to that. Not because its not true but because perhaps we could make the AI more competitive. Especially if the AI can "cheat" and get boosts that the player cannot. Where we can out think the AI the AI could get extras to compensate for this. However I think just better AI can always help too.

Better AI should always be what you're aiming for. Throwing the AI free stuff doesn't make them better, it just hides their stupidity for a bit.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I knew my post would seem that way

I think your missing the point. I was asking how you would play, not what you dislike about the way I would play.

but was not my intended goal.

And I left out my screenies which I put back in that Do show most of the options I used in my latest game. But my Options do change from game to game with some Obvious exclusions.

I also noticed that I had left part of my post out too. Got tripped up over making quotes.

I'm self taught on typing and so it shows. And it's been 28 years since I had to do a dissertation. I got failing marks on this one.

JosEPh

 

[ls612]

I think that Joe's point about Maps is very good, currently most of us modders use PW2 because it feels the most balanced. Other mapscripts with issues should perhaps be tweaked to be more balanced, so that more than just PW2 or 3 are used by us. I personally am looking forward to primem0ver's SDK map generation option, but I'd like to also see some of the 'offbeat' mapscripts updated (Arboria for one) to be more balanced, because currently they can give some really weird results.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I always use tectonics myself so that is what I am balancing for. Even though it does not produce enough hot deserts and too many Tibetan plateaus.

 

[Koshling]

I think that Joe's point about Maps is very good, currently most of us modders use PW2 because it feels the most balanced. Other mapscripts with issues should perhaps be tweaked to be more balanced, so that more than just PW2 or 3 are used by us. I personally am looking forward to primem0ver's SDK map generation option, but I'd like to also see some of the 'offbeat' mapscripts updated (Arboria for one) to be more balanced, because currently they can give some really weird results.

I never use PW2. I tend to use either PerfectMongoose or play on GEM for the most part.

 

[ls612]

I never use PW2. I tend to use either PerfectMongoose or play on GEM for the most part.

Me too, I use PW3 (which is Mongoose) for the most part.

 

[strategyonly]

I mainly was using PlantGenerator, but all this talk about PW2 stuff, i am going to try it out.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I found PW2 to be rather resource rich. But that seems to be one of it's big draws I suppose.

Maps like Shuffle, Lakes, Islands, Pangaea, Fractal, Archipelago, and Custom Continents are more of the old RoM and regular BtS style for the Not earth like maps. Even the "Inner Sea" one is an interesting alternative. I haven't used an Arboria for a long time.

Mix it up some boys to get a better feel for how the mod plays out. Really, it sounds like some of you are in a rut. No offense to anyone, but if you've been using the same map for the last 5 games it's skewing your view.

JosEPh

 

[AIAndy]

I found PW2 to be rather resource rich. But that seems to be one of it's big draws I suppose.

Maps like Shuffle, Lakes, Islands, Pangaea, Fractal, Archipelago, and Custom Continents are more of the old RoM and regular BtS style for the Not earth like maps. Even the "Inner Sea" one is an interesting alternative. I haven't used an Arboria for a long time.

The main draw of PW2/3 for me is that it does a proper climate simulation instead of using a fractal to determine terrain type like the map scripts you listed. Some of the other map scripts have a climate simulation as well but it was not so well suited to the many terrain types we have or I invested less time on the conversion and sometimes used a random one of multiple terrain types on a specific plot. The result is that it does not look that well.

In general though I'd rather not invest any time into map scripts at the moment with primemOver's SDK based tectonic/climate simulation on the horizon (which will likely also change how some other things are placed).

 

[ls612]

The main draw of PW2/3 for me is that it does a proper climate simulation instead of using a fractal to determine terrain type like the map scripts you listed. Some of the other map scripts have a climate simulation as well but it was not so well suited to the many terrain types we have or I invested less time on the conversion and sometimes used a random one of multiple terrain types on a specific plot. The result is that it does not look that well.

In general though I'd rather not invest any time into map scripts at the moment with primemOver's SDK based tectonic/climate simulation on the horizon (which will likely also change how some other things are placed).

That's fine (about mapscripts) but IIRC primem0ver is going to be making the SDK map generator as a modcomp for vanilla BtS first, and then porting it to C2C. That port will probably not happen for a couple months (with the possible exception of the geological parts for Multi-Maps), and at any rate if I'm understanding it correctly will require a mapscript to create the map first.

 

[Hydromancerx]

While the AI is much more challenging from the time I first made this thread there has been concerns about making later eras interesting. I am bumping this thread so we can discuss what can be done to make later eras interesting and unique.

Another issue may be keeping other civs that lag behind able to catch up. For instance we already have "tech diffusion" but I think we may need to boost it since C2C is a much different game than RoM/AND.

Likewise I think as the top civs reach some civs like Colonization and Globalization that tech should boost even the most backwards of civs. Because even today in the most primitive village in the remotest parts of the planet they have influences from the modern world. Be it owning a T-shirt or laptop but still living in a hut or yurt.

I am not saying all civs should be uplifted to the leading civs tech level but they should not live in a vacuum when it comes to techs either.

EDIT: I have also been thinking about revolutions. Especially since I had one in my recent game. I am thinking perhaps they should be more common. And those civs that do come out it probably should be stronger for it. Because what its doing is creating (for the most part) new civs at the same technological level as the nation they split off from. Thus becoming more powerful than struggling barbarian civ that just become a minor civ.

 

[Nimek]

Very good ideas. Tech diffusion should also have midfielders from ambassy rigght of passage open borders and free trade agrement. Tech also should play role.

 

[Hale_9204]

In my recent game I had tons of revolutions

maybe it's because I've been at war for ages and I had to choose civics reducing war weariness and increasing instability, but every 5-10 turns I have a city that is revolting

I think they're fine just as they are, normally they don't happen to me but in this game they happened. the chance of getting rev varies from game to game, depending on the challenges you have, so I wouldn'y say something like "no revs in my game, we should increase the chance to get one"

 

[Nakkimunakas]

Lately I've been playing games with 15% iAIPerEraModifier with gigantic maps and 40-50 starting civs as I like the 'bigger is better' in this game. That way there usually is something like 1-3 AI mega empires left for the late game.

I've noticed in these games that there is some threshold where the AI stops almost all unit production and starts producing research. The problem is that this limit seems to be in many cases too low (for example a strenght ratio 0.7 to me which is not enough for the AI to be scary strong). With the pereramodifiers they have the production and unit support to build more units so maybe they should only put some of their cities to research and keep building on their military advantage on other cities. Even though I'm using eramodifiers this same effect might very well happen in normal settings.

Also are big 50-50 or 30-70 precent of cities type revolutions possible because that would be cool? I've personally never seen anything but max 2 or 3 cities breaking off.

 

[Necratoid]

(Semiserious) Here is an idea... Make the game more challenging by following these rules!

-Play continents and choose 'Random' for the number. This will give you a massive cake sheet of solid land. This is due to a bug that wasn't fixed as of v27 and was reported starting v12ish.

-Pick a larger than huge map... this will give you hoards of room to expand. Spread out the AI and have no choke points what-so-ever. Its comically indefensible without roving stacks.

-Play with 49 AIs and no teams!

-Choose random personalities for leaders!

-Explore like mad

-Refuse to use start as minor civs! This will lets every single AI you meet immediately begin spamming rapid demands for free stuff at you every turn! They haven't researching grunting level languages but will still manage to constantly demand free stuffs!!! They also hate you endlessly due to early civics! Eventually the AIs will begin sending you contacts with free contacts with more hateful, needy AIs!

-Play with REV on. We can all read the forum and see its ability to cramp your style and nerf your mindless expansion! DO IT!!!

-Don't play with aggressive AI on... more peace means more Diplomacy Spam!!!

-Play with raging barbs and watch everything get obliterated by Neanderthals except your capital. For best results play on a slower than normal difficulty and watch as you spend hundreds of turns researching boats for nonexistent large bodies of water and if your really lucky horses are myths.

---
Following these simple steps you to can have 15-20 minutes turns as the sheer volume of diplomacy makes your computer lag into oblivion!

 

[JosEPh_II]

Fell better now?

JosEPh

 

[strategyonly]

Following these simple steps you to can have 15-20 minutes turns as the sheer volume of diplomacy makes your computer lag into oblivion!

Not anymore, not as of V 33