Keeping up in the power stakes

[ironic_lettuce]

Hi everyone

I've started playing the game on Noble now, and I've won a couple of games on time victories. I want to win a conquest game next, but I've noticed that when I play I always end up lagging way behind in the power stakes! I try to balance building my military and making my cities better but I can't seem to get it right - the AI seem to be able to do both at the same time with ease!

Are there any general tips that anyone can think of that might help me? When I start I try to get a religion, then get to at least bronze working so I can build some half decent units - then I just tech up depending on the layout of the terrain, access to resources etc. I'm still used to playing Civ 3 (on easier levels) where I would just get myself miles ahead in the tech stakes, THEN build up a huge army of guys that were too advanced for my enemies and then wipe them out. But in this game, as soon as the other civs smell blood, they're right in there! (something which I happen to like - makes it more challenging )

One thing I try and do is get meditation, polytheism and monotheism quite quickly so that they can't get them, then spread my state religion to them with missionaries so that they stay friendly with me till I want to destroy em I was just wondering - how likely is it that a civ who is friendly towards me (or pleased at least) will declare war on me if my military is rubbish?

So basically, any good tips on how to balance my production of military and building of cities would be great. Thanks

 

[DaveMcW]

Build a Granary every city. Then NOTHING else.

Put all your hammers into workers and military units. Cottages are stronger than libraries. Military police (with hereditary rule) are stronger than temples.
After every tile is improved and your continent is a single color, you can take a break and build a FEW buildings before taking the war overseas.

Ok, that is a bit extreme. But you really need to ask yourself "is this building worth X hammers?" before you build it.

 

[Janus0]

If you're weak, no matter how pleased they are with you, they'll declare war on you.

In the early game on noble, shooting for all 3 religions is possible, but as you've discovered, the tech tree makes you pay for it.

On monarch level, the only time I go for a religion is 1) when I start with a civ that already has mysticism, and I have a good commerce tile in my fat cross (fish is the best one), 2) when I shoot for a CS slingshot with the oracle, and I happen to get confutionism first and 3) when a neighbor founds a religion next to me, and I can simply take his shrine from him.

Religions are a luxury. You have to make sure that you can AFFORD the luxury. If you cannot afford to spend that long researching techs (and honestly, I think it hurts more than it helps when you go for 3+) then I wouldn't bother with it.

My best general advice for warmongering is to set up a single city as a production city. It doesn't have to be the city with the most hammers in it, but it should be in the top 3. When looking for a military production site, you want 2-3 food resources or flood plains and lots of hills. As the techs become availible, build a grainery, a forge, a courthouse, and the heroic epic in the city. Open up the city screen, hold down the alt key, click on axemen or swordsmen, and leave it alone.

I like having 2 nice production centers.. one with the iron works to build wonders, and the other with the heroic epic for units. In peace, the military city will give you everything you need to ensure a solid defense, and in war the two of them combined with easily out produce your losses if you aren't suiciding into heavily fortified cities.

I guess my advice is:
1) If you have to go for religions, just found one.
2) Setup a military city.

 

[ironic_lettuce]

Thanks for the tips guys

I forgot to mention that I do specialise a city or two as military cities, with mines on lots of hills to get my hammer production up One of my problems is I tell myself 'this library will only take 2 turns, I'll just build it now'. I suppose I should just be using that time to build an army!

any other tips more than welcome!

 

[malekithe]

One of my problems is I tell myself 'this library will only take 2 turns, I'll just build it now'. I suppose I should just be using that time to build an army!

If a city can build a library in 2 turns, it has absolutely no business doing so.

 

[ironic_lettuce]

If a city can build a library in 2 turns, it has absolutely no business doing so.

why is that? is it because the increase in science would be so insignificant?

 

[malekithe]

why is that? is it because the increase in science would be so insignificant?

Precisely. That city will provide much more value by working on wonders or military.

 

[ironic_lettuce]

Precisely. That city will provide much more value by working on wonders or military.

ah I see! thanks

I still have the mindset that every city has to have every building by the end of the game

thanks for the tip

 

[Paeanblack]

I still have the mindset that every city has to have every building by the end of the game

Imagine the following:
You are in the late Classical/early Medieval stages and have a few non-capital commerce cities that are really doing well...7-8 villlages, maybe some are towns, etc. Say it's generating about 30 commerce, and you are humming along at a 70% research rate. These would seem like ideal spots for libraries, right? A library will get you a whopping 5 beakers. Compare that to investing the same hammers into 3 more sacrificial axemen/catapults to soften up an enemy city for your veterans to capture.

Until there are no more enemy cities that could generate slightly more commerce than their upkeep, don't even bother with building libraries. Actually every science improvement is roughly the cost of the extra troops of that era required to take a typical computer city. Conquering for extra research is far more efficient than building for it.

 

[Melinko]

If a city can build a library in 2 turns, it has absolutely no business doing so.

If you have undefended cities, or personaly I try to get 3-4 units per city before I feel confortable. But after that point why not build a library.. get the extra science boost after 2 quick turns, and if you can build a library that fast, you can always switch it if you see an enemy coming.

Edit: 3 important things to keep in mind when building, and not in war 1) Is there anything I can build to build faster 2) Am I halfway defended 3)Do I want Religion, money, culture, or research.

 

[malekithe]

If you have undefended cities, or personaly I try to get 3-4 units per city before I feel confortable. But after that point why not build a library.. get the extra science boost after 2 quick turns, and if you can build a library that fast, you can always switch it if you see an enemy coming.

Extra science boost? The city is producing 45 hammers per turn. It's not going to be generating any significant amount of commerce with a hammer output like that. 125% of nearly nothing is still nearly nothing. If you really need science, either build beakers for two turns (not recommended) or build a worker who can then go chop a library in a city that would actually benefit from it.

 

[Melinko]

Extra science boost? The city is producing 45 hammers per turn. It's not going to be generating any significant amount of commerce with a hammer output like that. 125% of nearly nothing is still nearly nothing. If you really need science, either build beakers for two turns (not recommended) or build a worker who can then go chop a library in a city that would actually benefit from it.

First, you should always build it in the cities that can use it the most first, but other then building all these units you are just going to pay for without doing anything with for the moment, maybe it would be better to take 2 turns and build a library. Even if it is just 1 point (Note: 1 point 100 turns= 100 points heh) .. there are no downside.. and it will only get better as the town grows. Who cares if you are 2 turns behind making that guy I think you are taking 2 turns a bit too seriously.. There are times (especially in war) that 2 turns are important, and given.. wonders can be hard to get sometimes, but sometimes it is a better idea to build it in a slower time to be good in the long term.. You can't win the game in 2 turns heh

 

[malekithe]

First, you should always build it in the cities that can use it the most first, but other then building all these units you are just going to pay for without doing anything with for the moment, maybe it would be better to take 2 turns and build a library. Even if it is just 1 point (Note: 1 point 100 turns= 100 points heh) .. there are no downside.. and it will only get better as the town grows. Who cares if you are 2 turns behind making that guy I think you are taking 2 turns a bit too seriously.. There are times (especially in war) that 2 turns are important, and given.. wonders can be hard to get sometimes, but sometimes it is a better idea to build it in a slower time to be good in the long term.. You can't win the game in 2 turns heh

By that logic, why not take the time to build a university, observatory, and bank while you're at it. That's only 13 additional turns. You don't need those 6 extra cannons anyway... The point is, you can get better return on your investment of time by building things that actually play to the strengths of the city. If you truly have nothing else to build in this juggernaut production city, set it to build research. It'll still turn out better than building a library. If the turns don't matter at all in the outcome of the game, then of course it doesn't matter what you build. But, if that's the case, why haven't you won the game yet?

 

[ironic_lettuce]

hi guys

I tried again last night and got a bit further, but still not quite far enough! I played a tiny map against two civs (I was French, they were Roman and Egyptian). I managed to defeat the Romans, but by the time the war was over, Hatty had pulled waaaaaaaay ahead in the tech tree and was on SAM infantry and artillery when I was still on cannons!!

I know what my two downfalls were I think though. Firstly, when I went to war with Ceasar I only had two cities! I'm not very quick at expanding which is something I'm working on! I had the cities pumping out units every turn though which is how I got a decent army built up. But the next time I play I'll make sure I build more cities to get more commerce.

Secondly, I think I spent too much time building units for the war against Caesar. I need to manage my armies better so that i can get away with building fewer units and attack earlier.

Will let you know how I get on and thanks again for all the help!

 

[ironic_lettuce]

woohoo!

Just beat Gandhi and Saladin on Noble on a Tiny map

Mind you, at the end I was losing money hand over fist which is something I need to sort out!

Thanks guys

 

[Melinko]

By that logic, why not take the time to build a university, observatory, and bank while you're at it. That's only 13 additional turns. You don't need those 6 extra cannons anyway... The point is, you can get better return on your investment of time by building things that actually play to the strengths of the city.

Well... first I will answer why not, then I will explain why since aperntly you don't build buildings.. just units heh. There is more to wining then just building units. If you do not effeciently build buildings and units you will lose, but if you only build units you will become outdated and way out gunned. The point is to build units when you need them, and when you do not to actually build other things to bost your empire. (Note: I usually try to have some cities almost always just building units while other cities are building the buildings but.. thats just me).

You want to talk about 'return investment'.. You don't take into consideration all the good things those buildings are doing for you then, and in the future. Your thinking about those 2 turns in which (Since we are talking library we are talking really early in the game) you are most likely going to build 1.. yes a single unit. Now you want to go to the extreme and talk about universities, banks etc.. First, banks are another good one, especially if you can buy stuff (Mercernaries mod yeaa!) and I would easly pass up 2 units for +1-4 gold (from that single city.. if that city you made never gets better from 2 population) from that point on through the game.

If you truly have nothing else to build in this juggernaut production city, set it to build research. It'll still turn out better than building a library. If the turns don't matter at all in the outcome of the game, then of course it doesn't matter what you build. But, if that's the case, why haven't you won the game yet?

If you don't have anything else left to build wouldn't that mean that you have already built a library? heh.. but seriously turning to build research is good in a pinch or if ya have nothing left to build or do with a city.. but doing that while you still have buildings to bost your science from that city is kinda silly.. I am sorry, but it is more sensable building units other then a library (If ya need them) then to pass it up just to build research?? And I guess I should note I have beat a few games, and evertime I stick to a basic structure to my begining cities and it works all the way up to Deity.. Barr, Lib, Temple, Thea, and anything that helps production! (From there on it changes to fit the situation) If ya get those basic buildings is all your cities it will be in your favor, but be sure to take a break when ya can to build units.

Note: As I said before.. this is for Peace time.. And after you have at least some defense.. if your in war build units like mad, and if they don't come go get them.. But if your at peace why not make your civ the best ya can before you go attack.. I am not saying every single building.. and I am not saying you have to go as far as universities etc... If you are going to attack then of course build units.. but if you are just sitting there building up tring to get your empire in order then even if the help a building gives you is basic (Mainly if not especially the begining buildings like a library) build it!

Btw-
You have military, science, culture, religion.. Culture and religion can be somewhat ignored (I wouldn't suggest it) , but if you bypass Military or science you will lose the game because either they will have lots more units, or they will have tanks while you still have musketman.

 

[ironic_lettuce]

Hey Melinko

That's exactly what's happening to me

I played another game, this time I was Genghis Khan on a small map on noble, up against Montezuma and one of the Chinese leaders. I ended up wiping out Montezuma, but by the time I'd finished, I was once again miles behind in the tech race! I need to try and get this balance right - I'm not doing it very well at the minute!

 

[Melinko]

I am writing a tutorial on how to set things up. I am usually playing on immortal or diety level so it should be efficent enough to handle the the balance problum. (Note: Only the begining is there right now, wanted to see if it was good as is, or if I need to add more details before I went crazy with it)

Basic Training Thread

 

[Paeanblack]

A good rule of thumb is: Spend ~80% of your hammers on units until you own your landmass.

If you do a quick glance from time to time and you don't have four out of every five cities building units, you are probably falling behind.

 

[malekithe]

...since aperntly you don't build buildings.. just units heh.

Oh, I do. I just build them where they will benefit me the most.

(Since we are talking library we are talking really early in the game)

As we're talking about building a library in two turns, I seriously doubt we're in the early game. Early industrial age is more likely.

I would easly pass up 2 units for +1-4 gold...from that point on through the game.

I'm usually able to use 2 extra units to acquire far more than 1-4 gold per turn.

I am sorry, but it is more sensable building units other then a library (If ya need them) then to pass it up just to build research??

Exactly, build units while you need them (which is the case 95% of the game), then, and only then, build research/wealth. Also, beakers now are worth considerably more than beakers later. Building research now would likely give you as many beakers in 2 turns as the library would produce in 40-50.

And I guess I should note I have beat a few games, and evertime I stick to a basic structure to my begining cities and it works all the way up to Deity.. Barr, Lib, Temple, Thea, and anything that helps production! (From there on it changes to fit the situation) If ya get those basic buildings is all your cities it will be in your favor, but be sure to take a break when ya can to build units.

Really, barracks in every city? Most of my commerce cities don't have enough production to bother with a barracks, they just build the occasional catapult for bombardment purposes when they're not working on infrastructure.

You say you can win all the way up to deity with your city planning. I've yet to get a deity win on anything approaching typical settings, so maybe your approach can work. In my opinion, though, it lacks the nuance and economy required to play effectively at anything above monarch.

Note: As I said before.. this is for Peace time.. And after you have at least some defense.. if your in war build units like mad, and if they don't come go get them.. But if your at peace why not make your civ the best ya can before you go attack.. I am not saying every single building.. and I am not saying you have to go as far as universities etc... If you are going to attack then of course build units.. but if you are just sitting there building up tring to get your empire in order then even if the help a building gives you is basic (Mainly if not especially the begining buildings like a library) build it!

This view of game flow is somewhat naive. If you don't build units while at peace, you won't have units at the start of a war. You don't win games by leaving stacks of units in your cities waiting to absorb opponents' aggression (at least in single player) while you merrily build utopian cities. You have to be proactive. If you aren't actively trying to bring your opponents down, you aren't playing the game effectively. The game is all about finding advantages over your opponents. Building almost every building in every city is not going to lead to any sort of advantage over an AI opponent, who can do the exact same thing, only faster. Instead, use your human ingenuity and find ways to play to your strengths (Specializing a city to build most of your units, so that other cities can focus on improving your economy).