Keeping up in the power stakes

[floppymoose]

Or maybe you don't have any religion and need the library for the culture. Or maybe it's for your capitol ealry on, and you aren't producing much science there but want to push out a GP + get science beakers from teh specialist while doing so.

 

[Mango]

Here's what you do.

Go to the city and open up the city planner. Look at the top left and see how many beakers it is producing. Now multiply that by 125% and that is what you will be getting with a library. Do you think you need 10 extra beakers per turn? Early in the game that answer could be yes, but what if your capital is producing 300 beakers per turn? A library in a production city will not boost your tech rate enough to warrant those 2 turns. It would be better suited building attackers or defenders.

Specialize! If you have a city that is producing 200 beakers per turn then it should not be building anything other than libraries, universities, markets, banks, grocers, etc. Don't even bother building defenders, it is counter-productive. That's what your production cities are for. That city that is producing a unit every 2 turns can make defenders for each and every city in your empire. If you have a city that has maxed out its growth potential and is producing lots of hammers then it is prime for producing workers and settlers. Look at what benefits each city the most.

If you need culture then look at what kind of culture you need. Do you need to pop your borders fast so you can grab that food resource? Well then, look at your options. Instead of building a library maybe you can build culture instead. If it's an important resource then consider sliding your culture bar over a bit. If you're going to be fighting a culture war then theaters are much better than libraries.

But honestly, if a city is producing that many hammers early in the game then it just needs to be making troops. Sure libraries are nice, but you'll find the best results come from specializing. Specialized production cities, commerce cities, great people farms, and even super specialized cities like naval cities, worker cities, defense cities, etc. It's MUCH better than having a dozen cities that try to do everything. If you do that then you're going to end up with one great city (your capital), maybe 2-3 pretty good cities and a bunch of mediocre ones with little to no military to protect them. If the compute wasn't so incompetent it would realize this and take them all.

 

[Melinko]

Error! Error! Error! (Sorry bout that mixed up poses heh ignore this)

 

[Melinko]

Ya know I can quote several parts of what ya just said and continue pointing out where ya are obviously going wrong. But I think it is best covered with the statement of no good specialization comes without a base structure. I can already see ya mad rushin' all your units from one city to another since it isn't 'specialized' heh. If you have the very basic buildings in your places then it will make your civilization better for it.

I don't disagree with the specialization, but specialization is like building an University, or a Observitory, while a library is just good sense. The boost may start small but it is something, and every time your city goes up it gets better and better. While if you just switch to beakers it may give ya more, but then you are stoping everything else. (Also I need to check if the library's 25% effects the beakers.. really haven't tried it) Throw in specialist citizens, and improvements.. and voila you have a specialized city.

Diety is hard, and don't get me wrong I don't win every game. But, with a good base, decient production. Lots of units.. ugh.. lots and lots of units. You can beat them.. they are only the computer despite how many positives you give it.

And lacks the 'nuance to beat monarch' LOL... Man you have no idea maybe other then just disregarding the idea ya should try it sometime.. Maybe you could actually beat some of the harder match ups?

But honestly, if a city is producing that many hammers early in the game then it just needs to be making troops. Sure libraries are nice, but you'll find the best results come from specializing. Specialized production cities, commerce cities, great people farms, and even super specialized cities like naval cities, worker cities, defense cities, etc. It's MUCH better than having a dozen cities that try to do everything. If you do that then you're going to end up with one great city (your capital), maybe 2-3 pretty good cities and a bunch of mediocre ones with little to no military to protect them. If the compute wasn't so incompetent it would realize this and take them all.

I do get what you mean about no military, and don't get me wrong.. Self Defense is a good thing, but if ya have a few people in your cities, why not just build a library in your cities, or barracks? I mean it gives ya a much better base structure, and real quick you can get right back to building units with now the bonus of the extra science. Given.. there are times when it might be better to build units, don't get me wrong I can easly give there. I don't mean as soon as you possibly can, but I don't see why not and just use the later buildings to specialize? The ones that actually do more then just a library.

Edit: Maybe to clearify... What do you usually feel is a 'safe amount' of units in your cities by the time you get to the classical age (Horseback riding, Monarchy, etc) thats still realitivly early in the game, but still a few good turns in there?

 

[malekithe]

Look at it this way. Assume you need a bigger military; not for defense, but so you can go capture another's empire. Where do you build that military? You build it in the city that sacrifices the least while producing military units. This would be the city producing the least commerce that stands the least to gain by enhancing its infrastructure. This is your specialized production city. You could build a library in it, yes, but then you've got to build your military somewhere else; somewhere that will take longer and could have been working on a building to improve upon its higher commercial value.

Hammers are in limited supply in the game. You want to direct those hammers into avenues that will maximize your output. To that end, you build troops where you aren't gathering much commerce and libraries where you are. If you have the luxury of not needing any military at the moment, that would be a good time to improve the infrastructure of those troop producing centers. Take the time to expand the health or happiness cap, take some time off mines to work farms and grow, or build a wonder. A library, though, simply does not play to the strengths of that production city. If it's working nothing but mines and farms, and that's all you intend to do with it, there's no real value in a library.

 

[Melinko]

Look at it this way. Assume you need a bigger military; not for defense, but so you can go capture another's empire. Where do you build that military? You build it in the city that sacrifices the least while producing military units. This would be the city producing the least commerce that stands the least to gain by enhancing its infrastructure. This is your specialized production city. You could build a library in it, yes, but then you've got to build your military somewhere else; somewhere that will take longer and could have been working on a building to improve upon its higher commercial value.

I get that you want a bigger military to capture another empire, there is nothing wrong with that, but having a basic structure up that takes just a little more time (Round 2 turns is what we started with) just helps.. I mean I am not saying build your military units, but at any point of time just about any of my cities can build military units somewhat quickly, but I don't build them in all of them. And I'm tellin ya it doesn't hurt you near as bad as what your thinking it does to get a basic structure inside your cities. It helps long term which is sometimes what ya have to consider.. especially in those long games.

Hammers are in limited supply in the game. You want to direct those hammers into avenues that will maximize your output. To that end, you build troops where you aren't gathering much commerce and libraries where you are. If you have the luxury of not needing any military at the moment, that would be a good time to improve the infrastructure of those troop producing centers. Take the time to expand the health or happiness cap, take some time off mines to work farms and grow, or build a wonder. A library, though, simply does not play to the strengths of that production city. If it's working nothing but mines and farms, and that's all you intend to do with it, there's no real value in a library.

All I can say is you can't plan on when that computer is going to come with stacks of units way over your head. Or something that is just really bad for you. This especially happends at harder difficulty levels, but if you have a base... You can take a hit.. even lose a city or two (etc), and still win the game. Taking a little time out of your specialization to make something stable underneth really does help. It helps small at first sometimes, that is true, but the longer you have it the more it helps in the good times (When ya have the advantage) And really shines in the bad (When you are actually losing, but fighting back)

 

[malekithe]

All I can say is you can't plan on when that computer is going to come with stacks of units way over your head.

Ah, but I can and do. In single player, against the scripted AI, you can always tell when you are in position to be attacked by someone. You can manipulate the factors that would lead to being attacked. I haven't had war declared on me by an opponent for which I was unprepared in a very long time now. I fight wars on my terms, always.

 

[Melinko]

Ah, but I can and do. In single player, against the scripted AI, you can always tell when you are in position to be attacked by someone. You can manipulate the factors that would lead to being attacked. I haven't had war declared on me by an opponent for which I was unprepared in a very long time now. I fight wars on my terms, always.

You must restart games a lot or something, because especially on Imm+ (I assume lower too) they have times where they will just declear war, but that is still besides the point. Just because you know they are going to attack doesn't mean that there is much you can do when they do attack. Not to mention aggressive AI, or one of the hundreds of other things man.. Now your just blowin smoke.

 

[malekithe]

You must restart games a lot or something, because especially on Imm+ (I assume lower too) they have times where they will just declear war, but that is still besides the point. Just because you know they are going to attack doesn't mean that there is much you can do when they do attack. Not to mention aggressive AI, or one of the hundreds of other things man.. Now your just blowin smoke.

Look, the AI's behavior is not some sort of magic voodoo. It is controlled by a set number of inputs. Primary among those inputs are the power balance between the two sides and current relations. So, if you have a neighbor with a big army and only so-so relations, what do you do? You bribe him to attack someone else. That gives you time to counter with a strong enough force of your own. Understanding the variables on which the AI bases its decisions is paramount in attempting to control their actions.

 

[Melinko]

Look, the AI's behavior is not some sort of magic voodoo. It is controlled by a set number of inputs. Primary among those inputs are the power balance between the two sides and current relations. So, if you have a neighbor with a big army and only so-so relations, what do you do? You bribe him to attack someone else. That gives you time to counter with a strong enough force of your own. Understanding the variables on which the AI bases its decisions is paramount in attempting to control their actions.

Can you influence it.. Yes.. Can you try to make sense of it so it isn't 'vodo'.. yes... Can you always effect the AI into your favor.. No. Sure there are a lot of cases where you can, but to just say that is just kinda skipping a lot of things. If your neighbor has a large army, IF you can bribe him to attack someone else thats good and all, but if you can't? If they won't because the only other people on the map it doesn't want to declear war on? Yea understanding helps, but you are just assuming all this stuff all the time. If the AI are so easy that they are always just doing what you ask.. maybe you should try aggressive AI or something harder then Prince. heh

Note: I am not saying the AI isn't predictable, but at times it does stuff that you can't fully counter. Despite if ya know it is coming, or not.. And other times it will do something that isn't fully in the predictable sense or earlier then you thought it was coming.. There are so many diffrent things to say you always fight wars on your own terms is just silly man.. unless you restart everytime it doesn't go exactly the way you wanted it to go.

 

[pigswill]

Interesting debate between Melinko and malekithe; not sure how helpful it is to the OP who's trying to work out the right balance between war and peace at noble level.
Ironic lettuce; if you haven't done so already have a look at Sisutil's ALC series in this forum for discussions and examples of war and peace at prince level; maybe also check out some succession games.

 

[malekithe]

...maybe you should try aggressive AI or something harder then Prince. heh

Try reading through the GOTM or SGOTM forums every now and then. I'd say I do okay on difficulties well above Prince.

The game isn't about reacting to your opponents; that's a losing strategy. It's about planning and forcing others' hands. If you can't bribe away your powerful neighbor (or bribe someone else into attacking him), it's probably because you didn't sink enough time and resources into cultivating the proper diplomatic relationships. Yes, sometimes you hit a run of bad luck. But, again, that's what planning's for. You plan to minimize the effect of luck on your game.

Honestly, I don't know how we wound up on this tangent. It's completely irrelevent to discuss how I deal with my opponents. What matters is, I've got a larger army than I otherwise would because I've spent more time time cultivating production-specialized cities that crank out enough troops to allow my other cities to focus on research and infrastructure. That army grants me far greater latitudes in the diplomatic sphere. If, through some unforeseen mishap, one of my non-production cities comes under siege, I still have recourse; slavery and nationhood. But, as my army is always on my most vulnerable border, not diffused throughout my empire, I can easily respond to incursions.

The OP was having trouble producing a sizable military to keep up in power. I think the last thing he needs to be advised to do, in that case, is to spend turns in his production powerhouse building a library. If you need troops, you build troops. Now, if all of a sudden his problem swings the other way, I'd say he's creating too many industrial-focused cities. Finding a balance is part of the learning curve of the game. Typically, you're going to be fine with 1-2 of these for most of the game, but sometimes you'll need more or less.