Kerbal Space Program

I spent a bit of time playing around with different rocket designs yesterday, attempting to make my basic rocket design more powerful.

I made my lower stage a lot more powerful & efficient using the asparagus method, beefed up my second stage a bit, as well as the third. What I find though, is that by the time my lower stage is reduced to 1 booster (as opposed to 7, at the start), that is not enough thrust. Well, it sort of is, but it doesn't seem nearly efficient enough - I actually get into orbit faster if I just get rid of that 1 core, which is full of fuel, and move onto my 2nd stage. But that's a loss of a lot of fuel. Surely there is something that I'm missing or that can be done to my design to allow me to have a beefier 2nd stage while utilizing my asparagus design. Ideas? One thing I thought of was to make that central core very small. That way when I'm reduced to just that, I can just jettison it without a thought. But it seems like there's got to be a better way.

Say I wanted to have 8 boosters around my core. Does that mean I need to stack 3 decouplers on top of eachother to make enough room?

As far as my space station/big ben module. Right now I just have that mounted on top of my cabin. It looks rather.. unwieldly.. Should I be covering that up with something, or.. something? Do I need a capsule? The way the system behaves when you try to remove it makes me think that you do, but.. It'd be nicer if I could just have my space station building blocks up there and no capsule.
 
II made my lower stage a lot more powerful & efficient using the asparagus method, beefed up my second stage a bit, as well as the third. What I find though, is that by the time my lower stage is reduced to 1 booster (as opposed to 7, at the start), that is not enough thrust. Well, it sort of is, but it doesn't seem nearly efficient enough - I actually get into orbit faster if I just get rid of that 1 core, which is full of fuel, and move onto my 2nd stage. But that's a loss of a lot of fuel. Surely there is something that I'm missing or that can be done to my design to allow me to have a beefier 2nd stage while utilizing my asparagus design. Ideas? One thing I thought of was to make that central core very small. That way when I'm reduced to just that, I can just jettison it without a thought. But it seems like there's got to be a better way.
You have probably made your central booster stages too large. Your bottom central booster stage should be the same size or smaller than the side boosters. Each subsequent core stage should be half as big as the last or maybe a bit smaller than half. This is the way you maximize efficiency with your design, if you do this then you should have enough thrust.

Here's a diagram that shows what I mean:
attachment.php


Say I wanted to have 8 boosters around my core. Does that mean I need to stack 3 decouplers on top of eachother to make enough room?
You will have to use 2 or 3 decouplers stacked on top of each other. It depends on the specific radial decoupler you use. Try it with 2 and if that doesn't work add a 3rd.

As far as my space station/big ben module. Right now I just have that mounted on top of my cabin. It looks rather.. unwieldly.. Should I be covering that up with something, or.. something? Do I need a capsule? The way the system behaves when you try to remove it makes me think that you do, but.. It'd be nicer if I could just have my space station building blocks up there and no capsule.
There is no payload fairings/coverings yet, so there isn't anything you can currently add to make it look 'cleaner' right now without mods. However, if you just attach a TON of struts between the boosters, core booster and the station pieces, it will remain stable enough for use. The station core module that is pre-built in the game has a capsule on it called a 'lander can'. This is a two man capsule that is round like a tuna can instead of a tear-drop shape. It cannot survived much stress so it isn't great for some reentry scenarios, but is perfect for a space station.

You can't remove this capsule from the pre-built station core because it's the, uhm, central piece? If that makes any sense? After you have selected a capsule to start building your rocket, you can add or delete other capsules as necessary, but that first one cannot be removed. In this case, they used the round 'lander can' capsule as the central piece. You could rebuil the station from scratch using an unmanned space probe capsule, that will allow to send up an unnmanned central core.

Alternatively, you could attach another capsule to the pre-fabbed station core with it's own engines. Then, when on orbit, EVA your Kerbals and make them go to the return capsule, separate the two, then send them home.

I figure I need to learn how to dock with stuff, and if I succeed I have the building blocks for a space station. Then I can try going to the mun, since my rocket.. might have enough power for an attempt.. maybe? How big does my 2nd stage have to be if I want to have a lander (on the 3rd stage?)
Follow the guidelines I posted on stage size and you should be fine. A Mun rocket doesn't need to be huge, but a bigger one will give you more margin to play around with. A poodle or 2 NERVAS should be sufficient for the lander and both are pretty fuel efficient.


1. I could probably find the answer to this if I re-read last couple pages of the thread and a couple private messages, but.. I'll just ask.. During launch and attempt to get into orbit, I should be eventually moving laterally *opposite* to the spin of Kerbin.. right? How do I know which way to go?
No, that would be a retrograde orbit and will impose a big fuel penalty. Roll toward 90 degrees, this will send you in the prograde direction and you will pick up velocity from the planet's spin.

2. I know how to re-enter the atmosphere after being in orbit - but what's the most optimal way of landing? or does that depend on the scenario?
Cardgame and Antilogic covered this pretty well, if you need further clarification, just ask again.:D

In the tutorial I tried landing on the mun after I finished everything, but ended up I think coming in too fast laterally.. It was dark, I had problems figuring out which way to burn to best come in for a soft landing.. and in the end ended up crashing. That made me wonder about the couple times I've re-entered the atmosphere on Kerbin. I just burn, decrease my orbit, and make my way down without much thought. Should I be thinking about entry vectors or crap like that?
No, don't worry about entry vectors. When landing on an airless world, just burn retro over the spot you want to land at until your velocity goes to zero. You should then just drop almost straight down with little lateral movement. Also, always attach lights to the bottom of your capsule to help with night landings or only land on the day side.

It seems like the best way to land on the mun is to come down vertically somehow, since you can't use a parachute and need to make conditions as easy as possible for landing. How do I do that?
Burn retro until your velocity is zero, then you drop straight down.

edit: thinking about it, burning retrograde until I'm no longer moving laterally makes sense, but there's probably logistical issues I haven't thought of. Ah well, for now I've got other things to worry about
Nope, you got it. :D


This doesn't work, but I do have 2 attached boosters w/ 2 decouplers (top and bottom) all moving as a single unit.. So after I add the struts and turn on summetry, I should be able to just plop it all in and get what I want.
Hopefully that works (using symmetry in this way). Let me know, because if it does I'm going to start doing it too. I build my rockets the hard way. :lol:

edit: I'm using +/- on my numpad to zoom in and out. excellent
Cool beans. You can also google KSP key bindings to get a list of all the keys used in the game (some are not documented in the game).

I tried building a rocket using orange pieces and failed. It flies and gets me into orbit, but it's too inefficient. I'm going back to my old design and beefing that up instead.
I suspect this may have been due to not sizing the stages appropriately (see attached diagram) but I don't know. In any case, use what works.
 

Attachments

  • booster stack diagrams.jpg
    booster stack diagrams.jpg
    136.8 KB · Views: 223
GbCyr.png


Kuban Mun Base efforts have experienced pilot error and 45 m/s impact. One of the large solar arrays remain, as does the battery and some of the propellant. Joebro and Bob Kerman are safe. I will deliver an unmanned habitat module for them at some point to improve their situation.
Hey, they're safe, so it counts as a base! It's a good thing they don't require food. :scan:

Actually, I'm a bit worried that as they add more stuff, the game will get complex to the point of no longer being as much fun. If I have to plan out meals for a 2 year space trip and budget for all that weight, well, everyone is going to be eating frakking spam and dressing-less salad for 2 years. :lol:

I finally made it to Duna! I figure instead of risking my newly built interplanetary ship, I just throw an inexpensive probe at it to gain the experience of planetary transfers. After waiting for the right time and multiple restarts, I finally got a probe into Duna orbit. Here's the series of course corrections I had to make to normalize my orbit from my initial entry into Duna's gravity well

normalizing-orbit_zps902fd2dd.jpg


And here's my pretty new probe in orbit!

normalized-orbit_zpsa088776e.jpg


I also landed a probe on the surface to get a feel for what the atmosphere is like. So after getting enough confidence to launch the Duna Express...

dunaexpress-inorbit_zps7f4f43b2.jpg


It's a terribly poor performing vehicle I've discovered. The fuel won't go through the docking ports to make one long fuel thing but I was able to transfer fuel. It's also off balance and not perfectly aligned. I also spent a great deal of fuel just getting to Duna. I went through 3 refuelings of those engines just to get into orbit. I'm going to make an extreme effort to preserve those four lander nacelles for when I'm going to have to abandon the mother ship. Fortunately the unmanned lander I sent beforehand demonstrated the parachutes will deploy well in the low lands. A painful lesson, but a good one.

That's really cool dude! Yeah, it's always fun to send probes out first to practice stuff, it makes it seem like your heading a legit space program. :D
 
hobbsyoyo said:
You have probably made your central booster stages too large.

What if I want a large central stage? I mean.. Say I want to get to one of the planets or whatever. As things stand now, my second stage will have to be so small, I'll likely use it all it up before I'm even in orbit. Then all I have is the tiny 3rd stage.

I want to put something larger and more complex in orbit. Do I need to resort to a lower stage built out of 8 orange boosters, doubled up?

I also really hate assembling rockets, in that things almost never snap to the things I want them to. This only happens with booster placings.. I'll have the decouplers in place, but then when I try to snap a fuel tank to it.. everything goes to hell and it turns into a game of "mouse slightly to the left.. slightly to the right.. bit higher.. lower.. doh" and frustration.

I also hate it when you accidently click on the wrong thing, and next thing you know your 6-8 lower boosters are deatched, and they're impossible to reattach in the same location, and you have to start from scratch. I really hope they fix the rocket assembly stuff or at least make it more user friendly.
 
Don't worry, to my knowledge the devs have promised never to implement perishable resources like life support.
 
What if I want a large central stage? I mean.. Say I want to get to one of the planets or whatever. As things stand now, my second stage will have to be so small, I'll likely use it all it up before I'm even in orbit. Then all I have is the tiny 3rd stage.
I would just play around with adding or deleting tank segments one at a time until you hit the right mix and keep in mind that bigger isn't always better. You will find that if you have a large sub-obtimal rocket that deleting a tank or two may actually make it perform better.

Can I have a screenie of the design you are working with now?

I want to put something larger and more complex in orbit. Do I need to resort to a lower stage built out of 8 orange boosters, doubled up?
(I wish someone with a different, successful design philosophy would answer this as well)
From my perspective, you don't have to use double stacked orange boosters. However, by taking my approach toward launcher design, you are going to end up going in this direction. You see, the way you are building your rocket, even if you don't use orange double-stacked tanks, your going to end up building something that is in fact the exact same as an orange double-stacked rocket.

Here are the advantages with my design approach (wrt orange tanks)
-This allows you to have a ton of fuel without having to place an absurd amount of tanks. I think one orange booster is equivalent to two of the next smallest tanks.
-Less tanks = more stability, less wobbling
-Using the double-stacked arrangement will leave you with a naturally efficient design. Use 8 double stacked boosters around a double stacked core. Then, your next stage will be a single orange tank with a mainsail. Next will be your lander, and it can be absurdly large.
*You will have to attach the fins to the central core with eight symmetry or else thye will hit the launch tower and break off. Even if they are buried underneath the boosters, they will still work.

I use this set up for it's enormous lifting power and relative simplicity, though I know others have equally valid (and very different) approaches.

I also really hate assembling rockets, in that things almost never snap to the things I want them to. This only happens with booster placings.. I'll have the decouplers in place, but then when I try to snap a fuel tank to it.. everything goes to hell and it turns into a game of "mouse slightly to the left.. slightly to the right.. bit higher.. lower.. doh" and frustration.
Yeah, the game is still in Alpha and it shows. They certainly haven't made it as easy as making a critter in Spore, but hopefully it will improve. I made a 'suggested improvements to KSP' thread if you are interested in griping along with me.

I also hate it when you accidently click on the wrong thing, and next thing you know your 6-8 lower boosters are deatched, and they're impossible to reattach in the same location, and you have to start from scratch. I really hope they fix the rocket assembly stuff or at least make it more user friendly.

ControlZ will undo your mistakes. :D

Don't worry, to my knowledge the devs have promised never to implement perishable resources like life support.

Thank god!
 
CONTROL Z ASKDF&qw%^&@%87Q58y98

thank you

btw what's a mansail?

I will have to go through this in more detail once I'm home/have more time

btw

Using the double-stacked arrangement will leave you with a naturally efficient design. Use 8 double stacked boosters around a double stacked core

My core should be shorter, shouldn't it? As per our earlier conversation and your diagram
 
The mainsail is that big honking engine that you've been using. I use it too, I tried using clusters and found no real advantage to them; particularly when trying to lift heavy payloads. They tend to overheat fast, so you can't use them at full throttle.
 
I think the most important thing for getting a good lander up in space is the use of fuel lines and staging. Once you have figured out how asparagus staging works, you open up a whole new set of options for large spacecrafts. :)

See THIS PIC from HERE
 
Xbskx.png


Prolonged Life of Revolutionary Kubanauts Module 1 has landed within 300 meters of the half broken Mun Base. The glorious food and habitation modules, along with enough fuel for a potential orbit of the Mun should a pickup be required, have made Joebro and Bob very pleased.
 
I think I'll be sticking to Mun landings for now until I can get better at designs. I'd like to have colonies on every planet that is possible and stations in orbit around others.
 
Okay.. I have been screwing around with my rocket design, doing trial and error stuff (still), and I have come up with something that will get my 2nd stage with 15-35% of fuel left into orbit, with a 3rd stage with a good amount of fuel, and then some sort of a spacestation part on top or lander or whatever on top of that.

So now I have two spacestation like parts floating around in somewhat similar orbits.. How do I intercept one with the other and then dock? I have set up my target and a couple things popped up on my navball, but I'm not sure where to go from here. Am currently looking this up on youtube
 
I will answer you when I have my computer unpacked, it is too much to type one my phone. About to hit the road.
 
That's a lot of RCS fuel.

Well the Duna Express I was a failure! I disconnected the lander only to realize I forgot to load it up with RCS fuel. So in an attempt to redock, I destroyed half the ship! Oh well, here's the Duna Express II being fueled up! More stable, a better stabilizer, two more engines and a lighter lander since I was only going to land one kerbonaut on the surface which should cut down on weight in the overall.

dunaexpress2-refuelingexterior_zps30403e08.jpg

dunaexpress2-refuelinginterior_zpscf1e6602.jpg
 
Too much RCS fuel? I ran out once, so I just added another tank. Maybe I'm turning on my RCS too early (at about 5km of altitude during launch)

I can't believe I somehow made it to the mun on my first try... For a couple hours after that I tried upgrading my lander to have enough fuel for a return flight, but the extra fuel has been giving me too many problems with getting the whole shindig in orbit and I haven't been back to the mun since.

The lander I had was very ghetto.. It was pretty much a random first design that ended up making it to the mun. Totally didn't think it was going to work, it was just going to be a rough first lander design. What you see in the image are the remains of my "landing gear", which was built out of 4 engines and a bunch of struts. It all blew up when I landed. After the smoke cleared, only 4 struts remained and the rocket was landed safely and stable. Phew

Felt very good to do that first moon walk

I wonder how the career mode is going to work once the game is finished. It seems like it's going to have to give you a lot of leeway in terms of death and destruction ;)
 
Finally landed on Eve :)

Spoiler :
XuiHX.png


Ambitious two-piece lander is ambitious: I actually got turned completely upside down by a miscalculated center of mass and the two radial parachutes on the main lander. Thanks to in-flight restaging, I decoupled the rover and activated its chute without firing my seperatrons (and my rover) straight into the ground. (Original parachutes were opened roughly 1km above the surface; roughly 400m before touchdown it flipped over.
 
I haven't actually done any missions beyond LKO since .18 was released, but I'm going to have to try again soon.
 
Too much RCS fuel? I ran out once, so I just added another tank. Maybe I'm turning on my RCS too early (at about 5km of altitude during launch)

I can't believe I somehow made it to the mun on my first try... For a couple hours after that I tried upgrading my lander to have enough fuel for a return flight, but the extra fuel has been giving me too many problems with getting the whole shindig in orbit and I haven't been back to the mun since.

The lander I had was very ghetto.. It was pretty much a random first design that ended up making it to the mun. Totally didn't think it was going to work, it was just going to be a rough first lander design. What you see in the image are the remains of my "landing gear", which was built out of 4 engines and a bunch of struts. It all blew up when I landed. After the smoke cleared, only 4 struts remained and the rocket was landed safely and stable. Phew

Felt very good to do that first moon walk

I wonder how the career mode is going to work once the game is finished. It seems like it's going to have to give you a lot of leeway in terms of death and destruction ;)

Are you leaving it on while traveling between Kerbin and the Mun? I usually don't run out on a single tank unless I'm doing tons of searching for a good place to land over the Mun. I sometimes use RCS during my launches and then turn it off once I get into space, and then turn it on again when I need it.

Don't worry--your guys survived the landing! I hit the Mun too hard on my first three trips or so, and one afterwards.

Plus side: I have just over a week of vacation coming up and my new computer, so I'll be able to play some KSP! Just started work on my space station, was going to name it the Kerbal Interplanetary Space Station but since somebody already took that acronym, it will have to be named simply the Antilogic Space Station.
 
Back
Top Bottom