King of the World #1: Montezuma

[Neal]

Round 0: The lay of the land (4000 B.C.)
Round 1: Bricks and Buddhas (4000 B.C. - 3200 B.C.)
Round 2: The Drums of War (3200-1040 B.C.)
Round 3: Welcome to Washingtlan (1040 B.C.-750 B.C.)
Round 4: I think we're alone now (750 B.C.-475 B.C.)
Round 5: Swords to Plowshares (475 B.C.-375 A.D.)
Round 6: Greetings from Europe! (375-1000 A.D.)
Round 7: Clawing Back Into It (1000-1200 A.D.)
Round 8: Little Buddy Huayna (1200-1525 A.D.)
Round 9: Prepping the Launchpad (1525-1700 A.D.)
Round 10: Aztecs in Spaaaaace! (1700-1848 A.D.)

Hello, all. Despite having lurked around here for more than a year (I remember Sisiutil's Mao game), this thread does indeed mark my emergence from my lurker cocoon. Like Sisiutil, aelf, and countless others before me, I'm trying to make my mark with an ALC-ripoff. This one, though, will be a little different. These games will be played exclusively on the Earth 18 Civs map. The games will be played with Warlords (though, given that it's the 18 map, we will sadly be without the Warlords rulers) on Monarch (which is a step up for me, being more of a Noble\Prince kinda guy).

Playing on one particular map changes the game considerably. Exploration becomes a nonfactor, except as it pertains to goody huts and fog-busting. We won't need to beeline Bronze Working or Animal Husbandry to search for copper and horses. And, perhaps most importantly, we can map out long-term strategies in advance.

Our first game will feature everyone's favorite psychopath, Montezuma.

Monty, as he's known, has a number of interesting strengths and weaknesses on this map. He's the only real military heavyweight on a continent full of softies. Roosevelt, in my experience on this and other maps, will gladly respect the player's borders and play Happy Kingdom, and Huayna Capac seems oddly content to be stuck in his little rocky corridor (I know that when I'm playing the Incas on the Earth map, my first priority is to expand to South America proper).

While he has a comfy little womb to grow up in, though, Montezuma faces some hard facts once Optics make an appearance. He's an isolated small fry, usually woefully behind in the tech race. And while the vast ocean protects him from the rest of the world, it also protects the rest of the world from him.

So there we are. Which way should we go? I've always been partial to founding 1 NE, myself, but I'm willing to be shouted down. I've always had a soft spot in my heart for this map, but I'm by no means an expert at it. What should our early game strategy be? Warrior-Worker-Settler? Worker-Settler? Should we shoot for an early religion? Should we focus on smashing Roosevelt early? Cottage economy or specialist economy? If we can tame the Amazon jungle (and this includes the seemingly endless supply of barbarians it seems to spawn), we can set up one heck of a swath of cottages, I've found.

All right, enough talk from me. I'd like to hear some ideas from you all (Heck, is doing a series of games on a single map, even if it is the archetypal map, a good idea?) before going on. This forum has given me hours of entertainment and volumes of useful information. I figure it's time to give a little bit back.

Neal

 

[vale]

I love this idea although I am jealous of your ability to play huge maps so easily. Please continue.

 

[AThousandYoung]

When I played that map I chose Montezuma for the sole reason of having Panama. Panama is such an extraordinarily important strategic position; however I ended up expanding only northward due to there being a giant mountain blocking Mexico off from South America...very odd. Is Central America really impassable???

I think I went south a few squares, crossing over the mountain pass via the hill with the dyes to found Panama. However it had a lot of problems with sickness the whole game and I found that there were several suitable positions for a canal city so there's no need to do so in order to have a canal.

In the end I took over most of North America but Roosevelt kept up a guerrilla war for a long time and I could never deal the finishing blow. I gave up once the Old World became completely dominant.

Another city I had problems with was one I planted in the hilly plateau in the middle of the Rockies, just east of the California coast. It had no food and wouldn't grow.

 

[mice]

Great idea to do the earth map. Settle in place? Lotsa production, lotsa food.

 

[AThousandYoung]

1 NE looks like the right move. It gets rid of some of those mountains from the FX.

 

[Killroyan]

Pro's for 1 NE:
3 less peaks in the BFC (otherwise 5 unworkable squares in your BFC with an abundance of food = BIG WASTE)
Coastal start (always good)
Frees up another mountain for production with the incredible amount of food
Will still block of the whole panama
If settling in place then you also get 4 sea squares with no possibility for a lighthouse with just 1F/2C which is pretty useless
Harbor is possible which means extra health in a high food city = always good

Cons:
You loose the hammer bonus for settling on the hill
You loose the deers in the BFC (but opens up another good city site propably with deer and clam)

I would say settle 1NE. Keep it coming. I have never played the earth map so far. Should really give it a try.

 

[r_rolo1]

How about 1 NW? Keeps all the visible resources in the BFC, settles in a plains hill. The only cons I can see is the 3 mountains in the BFC and a turn lost. But, as usual.... move the scout and repost the map ( I really can't remember how this map is for Monty )

 

[Killroyan]

1NW is still not coastal so 3 useless coastal squares and it will also have at least 4 peaks in the BFC (maybe even 5 but I cannot recognize it). This will result in only 11 workable tiles at most.

 

[cabert]

Another option, though not easy is to move a lot and find (well, you know where they are) your "neighbours".
You lose something like 20 turns, but after that you can rush them at your leisure.
Just said so to highlight another option, not saying you should.
I would settle 1 NE.

 

[Neal]

Hmm... I've never tried this before, but... what about 2N? That would keep the deer and snag the silver, and still only have two mountains (and one semiuseless noncoastal water). It would put us a turn behind in a religion race...

The other advantage of 1NE is it does allow a second city to snag the silver, deer, and a clam that's hidden just inside the Baja California. Of course, the rest of that BFC is desert, mountains, and coast (with maybe one more plains hill), so maybe we should rope the deer and silver into the capital.

So, while I've got you all on the line, what should our short-term strategy be? Should we shoot for a religion? Which one? Military techs to rush FDR? Sailing and Iron Working to REX all over South America? The neat thing about being the only aggressor on the continent is that we can call the shots. If we wanna war, we have the upper hand. If we don't, our neighbors are perfectly willing to live and let live. I've had success in the past slingshotting Feudalism and, after a quick war, vassalizing Roosevelt around 0 AD. Of course, that was on Noble...

 

[KMadCandy]

howdy, welcome to the posting side, quite a brave way to make your entrance

i have questions specific to the map in this series, if it becomes one, pretty please:

"These games will be played exclusively on the Earth 18 Civs map. The games will be played with Warlords (though, given that it's the 18 map, we will sadly be without the Warlords rulers) on Monarch (which is a step up for me, being more of a Noble\Prince kinda guy).

Playing on one particular map changes the game considerably. Exploration becomes a nonfactor, except as it pertains to goody huts and fog-busting. We won't need to beeline Bronze Working or Animal Husbandry to search for copper and horses. And, perhaps most importantly, we can map out long-term strategies in advance."

i've never played that map. i do have a sense of how inland seas changes my approach (i know that we'll all meet each other early, etc.). but for this one, do you (and the others) always start on the exact same tile each time? "I've never tried this before, but... what about 2N?" kind makes me think so. or do you just start in the same very limited general area? are resources the exact same place each time? edit: you covered that, bronze and horses are and even clams. luxuries too i guess?

you know who your opponents will be, and which ones will be near you. you even know how many you'll have left to trade with if you kill X number early on, interesting. i guess most are far far away overseas in this "start in the americas" case, is that right?

is there any land, coast, or kind of easy to arrange coast-border connection that can be arranged so that the ummmmmm hemispheres(?) meet each other before caravels?

signed, anonymous, who is obviously too lazy to go test this. thank you! good luck . i hope you and all of us learn from this. i imagine the reporting will take quite some time and i hope it doesn't get you down or in the way of having fun.

 

[Neal]

Regarding Panama: The canal city is certainly feasible, and quite valuable. The best site is, however, separated from us by mountains. Of course, that just means that it's not going to be our second city, but rather our third or fourth (perhaps even later), since it requires a trireme. And a bunch of workers to get it up and running.

To KMadCandy: Yup. Everyone starts where they "start" in real life (America starts where D.C. is, rather than Philadelphia, but America's always been a weird case in Civ). We're in Mexico, as close to real world Mexico City as the scale will allow. And yeah, we're pretty isolated.
I've heard there's a trick in which you can set up a city in Alaska and culture-bomb it to stretch its borders to eastern Asia. The resources required to do that are pretty ridiculous, though, making it definitely just a trick. And honestly, with 15 Civs on the other side of "the pond" swapping techs and, for the most part, being friendly with each other (especially if we decide to found multiple religions), it's pretty darn likely that we'll be seeing their caravels before they see ours (unless we beeline, and maybe not even then).

 

[AThousandYoung]

Why is the best site for the canal on the other side of the mountain?

And WHAT is that stupid mountain supposed to represent? I have a really hard time believing I can't get in a car and drive from Mexico to South America (barring Barbarians of course).

You do know that you can walk right past those mountains that are visible from Monty's starting position, right?

Starting in Mexico suggests a naval strategy due to the canal and large continents in both directions, but like I said I found going to South America inconvenient and went north. Then again I didn't do that well in that game. A naval strategy will also allow earlier Caravels and therefore help with tech.

 

[Pete2006]

I have never ever seen dye on any type of hill nor silver on a grassland hill. Weird.

 

[LlamaCat]

This is an interesting game so a couple thoughts/questions:

1. What is your victory objective(s)? This is a huge map and obviously we're in the New World here so at some point land runs out or whatever.

2. Since we know the map, it seems obvious to me to take over North America since there are the great plains and plenty of good resources. There should be no horses though, right?

3. I think you gotta get that silver in your fat cross, my man. <--- Wow, what a strange sentence to write in any other context.

4. And finally, if someone writes "loose" when they mean "lose" one more time I am going to scream. Maybe I just need to "losen" up...

 

[oyzar]

posting savegame is a good idea. I would definatly settle NE as the second city will be decent(deer + clams + silver + hills) and it is coastal which allow you to get a galley out of it asap for your 3rd city. On the earth map there should be various perfectioned strategies for the different leaders though. Anyone have loads of experience with monty?

 

[50_dollar_bag]

I think the Mountain blocking off South and North America is a balance issue. Starting as the Inca you're blocked on the West coast of South America by the Andes with only a thin 1 tile wide stretch of land representing Chile. I don't know exactly why it's like that maybe it's to stop a Financial Huyana from cottaging all that beautiful river/grassland once the Amazon has been cleared. So if the Incans are blocked in I guess it's only fair that the Aztecs have the same thing.

That's my theory anyway.

 

[Killroyan]

A city with deer, clam, silver (with 1 food woohoo) and at least three more hills is a great production center to get for example the colussus. Then all the water tiles also become very good squares also and this city can grow very well. Even if all the other squares are desert and peaks then it is still a good city. That means two good cities at start with good production, food and commerce.

 

[Neal]

To begin, I went the safe (and popular) route and founded Tenochtitlan 1 NE. We're gonna need a religion sooner or later, and we have Mysticism, so I told our wise men to consider Meditation. With the eggheads gazing at their navels rather than figuring out what to do with all of this corn, a Worker first strategy doesn't make sense, so we'll start with a Warrior.

Meanwhile, the scout is sent off to find new lands to claim and new peoples to conquer. Somewhere in what we would call Kansas, the scout found a village of natives!

It's a sad, sad day when a bunch of hut-dwelling savages know more than we do:

I'll take it, though now I wish I'd gone for Polytheism instead. Ah, well. To the east, we found Alexander!

... Just kidding. Nothing to talk about just yet, not without the ability to share techs or even extort a gold or ten. The scout, after discussing the weather with Roosevelt for a couple of years, trudged off to map some more.

After a while, we finished training our first savage (if sorely underequipped) troops.

Is... is that a panther off in the jungle? In 3600 B.C.? Man, they don't mess around on Monarch. Fear not, though. Our Warriors made quick work of them.

Anyway, our wise men came up with something about one hand clapping or some such hooey:

Given our environs, I set research to Agriculture, and Tenochtitlan to Worker production. Then it was just a matter of steering our scout and waiting for things to finish. In 3200 B.C., Agriculture finished. Our Worker is right around the corner, presumably to be followed by a Settler. Our immediate surroundings are mapped out.

Now what? I have research set to The Wheel, though it can certainly be changed. With Isabella, Asoka, Hatshepsut and Saladin out there, there's no way we're gonna get Hinduism (Nor do we really want it, I don't think- We don't want to force the 15 Civs in Eurasia to share a religion and become a happy, unkillable power bloc). Animal Husbandry is next to useless in our situation, without anything to pasture up. The metal techs won't reveal any metals for us to mine, though we will probably need to cut back jungles fairly soon. Maybe now's the time to start thinking sailing techs, though I doubt it. We can expand the old-fashioned way, first (and probably should- South America and the Caribbean will be there for us until 500 A.D. at least, while the southeastern U.S. can be hotly contested). The Wheel is like bread. Nothing fancy, but it's never a wrong choice.

As per the lay of the land, here's Mexico:

Here's the Gulf:

And here's the Midwest:

I think our Silver\Deer\Clam city should wait until we've established borders with FDR. I leave it up to the hive mind, though. Whaddya all think?

Oh, and I didn't attach a save to the initial post since, as a scenario, anyone can start it up and get what I had. As we go on, though, saves will be provided, starting with this post.

 

[cabert]

I'm not really used to this map, but you seem to know better.
Will FdR meet HC or anyone early enough so you can trade something?
If yes, I suggest settling on the stone and starting pyramids straight away in your new city, while you build up your capital/build fogbusters.
techwise, priority is writing/alphabet (fishing too, so I suggest going the pottery route).

If you're not going to be trading techs anyway, you may just as well kill FdR asap = tech up to IW while settling next to his capital (there is a good forested city site, with deers and fish, perfect for a whipping/chopping center).