Ares de Borg
Norman Knight
Thanks Vuldacon, you saved me some trouble.
So may this be the way out:
?
What do you think?
So may this be the way out:
?
What do you think?
King Units
- Thread starter Plotinus
- Start date
Ares de Borg IF I follow you correctly, the WW1 Upgrade would directly Upgrade to the WW2 BB.
Unfortunitely, King Units do Not prevent the Units that Upgrade to them from continuing to be built. This means we have to set Unit Upgrades with Buildable Units in order to prevent the former units from continuing to be buildable.
The King Units just prevent themselves from being built, Not the Units that Upgrade to them.
IF we want earlier Units as well as the later Upgraded Units from them to both not be able to be built after the Upgrade, the Earlier Unit must also be set up where it cannot be built and the upgraded Unit be set as a King Unit.
The Big Problem is simply preventing the WW1 Unit from continuing to be able to be built...otherwise all would work well.
The Earlier Units can either be Auto Produced for many of the same Unit types or Pre-placed for special one of a kind units to prevent them from being built.
Since you have special One of a Kind Ships, why not pre-place those as immobile and have them Upgrade to the WW1 Ships when ever you want so you can at least give them an Upgrade Cost to take the place of not Building them...then Upgrade them to the WW2 King Unit Ships with layer Advances? The Other Ships in the game could just Upgrade Normally.
Ares de Borg
Norman Knight
Okay, so I won't check the "King" flag for the upgrade. Would be like:
WW1 ship ---> WW1 Ship upgrade (not a king, no upgrade flagged) --> WW2 ship (at the same tech as the WW1 upgrade).
This should prevent both the "WW1 ship" and the "WW1 ship upgrade" to be build from scratch, right? Question is, can the "WW1 ship" still be upgraded although the WW2 ones are buildable at the same tech?
Sorry, but no chance. It's an total conversion, epic game with random maps and such, not a scenario.
No autoproducing possible either, as I have no more place for buildings. And we're talking about 15+ ship classes affected (of over 1300 units total).
Thanks for your patience!
Edited
This would prevent the WW1 Ship from being built after the WW1 Ship Upgrade, However, the WW1 Upgrade Ship would be buildable and although it would not Upgrade to the WW2 Ship, the Civilopedia would state that it does.
The WW1 Ship would Upgrade to the WW2 Ship and the WW1 Upgrade Ship would continue to be buildable so there would be not be much point to the WW1 Upgrade ship before Upgrading to the WW2 King Unit Ship.
The WW1 Ship would Upgrade directly to the WW2 Ship but the WW1 Upgrade Ship would continue to be built and if you do Not Check the Upgrade Box it would Not upgrade to the WW2 Ship but the Civilopedia would show it as being able to Upgrade to the WW2 Ship. This and the problem of that it can continue to be built.
...this is becoming confusing
Ares de Borg
Norman Knight
No, you got me wrong. 
1) The WW2 unit is NOT a king unit, it's regularly buildable (representing a modern battleship built in 1930s).
2) The Upgrade for the WW1 unit is at the same tech as the WW2 ship, but ONLY for upgrading formerly built WW1 ships (representing a WW1 ship being refitted for WW2 duty). It is meant to be used ONLY for existing ships (so that you can refit obsolete ships, but NOT upgrade them to the modern ones - so you will have refitted veterans parallel to the new ones in your fleet).
1) The WW2 unit is NOT a king unit, it's regularly buildable (representing a modern battleship built in 1930s).
2) The Upgrade for the WW1 unit is at the same tech as the WW2 ship, but ONLY for upgrading formerly built WW1 ships (representing a WW1 ship being refitted for WW2 duty). It is meant to be used ONLY for existing ships (so that you can refit obsolete ships, but NOT upgrade them to the modern ones - so you will have refitted veterans parallel to the new ones in your fleet).
Tell me an example of specifically what ship you want to Upgrade the WW1 ship to and specifically what the WW2 Ship has to do with it at all since the WW2 Ship is not part of the Upgrade, is buildable and not a King Unit.
There is no way to have the Upgrade for the WW1 Ship to become "refitted" and prevent either the WW1 ship or the Refitted Ship from being built. One of them will have to remain Buildable...IF you set the Refitted Ship to Upgrade to the Modern Battle Ship at the same Tech and as part of the Upgrade Chain, the WW1 Ship would directly Upgrade to the Moden Battleship rather then the Refitted Ship.
If the WW1 Ship is set to Upgrade to the Refitted Ship and the Refitted Ship is set as a King Unit, the WW1 Ship would continue to be built. IF the Refitted Ship is Not set as a King Unit it would continue to be built. One or the Other.
If the WW1 Ship is set to Upgrade to the Refitted Ship and the Refitted Ship is set as a King Unit, the WW1 Ship would continue to be built. IF the Refitted Ship is Not set as a King Unit it would continue to be built. One or the Other.
Ares de Borg
Norman Knight
Maybe this will get things clearer.
In the first line, we have the WW1 tech and a regularly buildable Battleship (in this case, USS Pennsylvania from 1913). --> (regular unit, upgrade flagged)
As the Player learns the WW2 tech, the WW1 ships are neither any longer available, nor can they be upgraded to the newer, better ships that can be built now. But, as the player has some old WW1 ships, he decides to refit them with new AA guns etc (like USS Pennsylvania in 1942). He sails his old battlewagons to port, pays some gold and now has some experienced ships that aren't as good as the newer ships now available, but they aren't as bad as the old ones either. If one sinks in battle, it is gone forever. --> (WW1 refit: regular unit, upgrade NOT flagged, selected next unit in the upgrade chain is WW2 BB: regular unit, upgrade NOT flagged)
Later in the game, the player learns the 1950s tech. No more battleships can be built, what's lost that's lost. But some, like the USS Iowa, can be modernized step by step, even in the 1980s.
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This is what I'd like to have. I guess in case of the Iowa, one has to work with the King flag.
I hope I could make myself a little clearer.
Attachments
Ares de Borg
Norman Knight
Okay, tested it. Sadly it won't work - the WW1 ships upgrades directly to the WW2 ship, not to the WW1 refit - as you already mentioned.
I guess it's not as easy as I thought.
I guess it's not as easy as I thought.
maybe missing the point here, but why not upg the ww1 to ww2(-) immobile, 0 attack, some def and let it sit (pretty useless), then when get tech the immobile unit can upg to the WW2BB(-). I've read the posts and I have to say am confused also what trying to avoid, if the ship is gonna upg to WW2(-) in the long run why stop it being buildable, and if the IOWA equivalents become available at same time and are better why would anyone even the AI (yes I know it is stupid) build the less capable ship.
I've done something like this, never used the King designator, but did require a specific scarce resource. Oh well good luck ....
I've done something like this, never used the King designator, but did require a specific scarce resource. Oh well good luck ....
Ares de Borg... I understand what you are wanting to accomplish with "Refitted" Older Ships at the same Tech as the New Ships.
The entire problem is that no matter what technique is used (King Unit or Not a King Unit), either the WW1 Original Ship or the WW1 Refitted Ship Will have to continue to be able to be built. You do not want this as this is suppose to be a salvaging improvement for older ships that you do not want anyone to be able to build.
I am also not sure how you intend to avoid having many Iowas when there was only one with how you want to Upgrade earlier Battleships to it.
IF you have the WW1 Battleships Upgrade to buildable ships of any kind, that will prevent the WW1 Ships from continuing to be built but the New Upgraded Units will be able to be built until they Upgrade to another Buildable Unit.
IF you set a Buildable Unit to Upgrade to a King Unit, the 1st Buildable Unit will continue to be able to be built because King Units cannot be built and the Game Engine needs a Buildable Unit as the Upgrade to prevent the previous Unit from being built.
IF you try to have the WW1 Ships upgrade to an immobile Unit that will just sit in the Cities until another Tech allows them to Upgrade to either a Functional same Ship or another Advanced Ship, that will probably cause the AI to Not Upgrade the WW1 Ships to the Immobile Ships until the Next Tech when they can just Upgrade all the way to the Usable Better Ship. It would however prevent any more WW1 Ships from being Built even if they are not upgraded to the immobile units which would address that problem. Another Problem with this would be that the immobile unit would have to be buildable in order to prevent the WW1 Ships from being built so the Immobile Ships would be built and would be upgraded to many WW2 Ships.
IF you have any way to have an improvement or Wonder produce the first WW1 Ships, your Upgrades could be handled to work for Refitted and advanced Ships by using King Units that cannot be built but that would allow upgrades.
IF you set any Ship as a King Unit, the previous unit will continue to be built. A King Unit can Upgrade to another King Unit so you have choices of what ships you want to continue to be built. Example: WW1 Battleship, buildable, upgrades to Refitted King Unit Battleship and it upgrades to the WW2 Battleship King Unit. These WW2 Battleships could Upgrade again to yet another Modern Battleship that does not need to be a King Unit. The 1st WW1 Battleships would continue to be able to be built but because they would be far lesser units, the AI would not tend to build them.
I am sure you have seen the AI not build a Unit that they can because it is lesser than what they can build at the same era. What I am saying is that perhaps you do not need to worry about whether an earlier WW1 Ship can continue to be built because the AI favors the best units. Try Setting your WW1 Ships as buildable and have them Upgrade to Refitted King Units and then have those refitted King Units Upgrade to King Units if you do not want them Built and if you do want the Upgrades Buildable, set them as Non King Units. You could mix and match this with different CIVs so some Modern Battleships will be buildable and some Not depending on the King Unit Setting. Just keep in mind that if a Buildable unit Upgrades to a King Unit, the Buildable unit will continue to be able to be built.
This situation is very problematic and has caused me the same problems to get around.
One last point is that IF you set a Unit to Upgrade to another Unit typed in the Upgrade Slot in the Editor but Not Check the Upgrade Box, the unit will become Obsolete and not be able to be built But the Civilopedia will still state that the unit Upgrades to the stated unit which it will not.
The entire problem is that no matter what technique is used (King Unit or Not a King Unit), either the WW1 Original Ship or the WW1 Refitted Ship Will have to continue to be able to be built. You do not want this as this is suppose to be a salvaging improvement for older ships that you do not want anyone to be able to build.
I am also not sure how you intend to avoid having many Iowas when there was only one with how you want to Upgrade earlier Battleships to it.
IF you have the WW1 Battleships Upgrade to buildable ships of any kind, that will prevent the WW1 Ships from continuing to be built but the New Upgraded Units will be able to be built until they Upgrade to another Buildable Unit.
IF you set a Buildable Unit to Upgrade to a King Unit, the 1st Buildable Unit will continue to be able to be built because King Units cannot be built and the Game Engine needs a Buildable Unit as the Upgrade to prevent the previous Unit from being built.
IF you try to have the WW1 Ships upgrade to an immobile Unit that will just sit in the Cities until another Tech allows them to Upgrade to either a Functional same Ship or another Advanced Ship, that will probably cause the AI to Not Upgrade the WW1 Ships to the Immobile Ships until the Next Tech when they can just Upgrade all the way to the Usable Better Ship. It would however prevent any more WW1 Ships from being Built even if they are not upgraded to the immobile units which would address that problem. Another Problem with this would be that the immobile unit would have to be buildable in order to prevent the WW1 Ships from being built so the Immobile Ships would be built and would be upgraded to many WW2 Ships.
IF you have any way to have an improvement or Wonder produce the first WW1 Ships, your Upgrades could be handled to work for Refitted and advanced Ships by using King Units that cannot be built but that would allow upgrades.
IF you set any Ship as a King Unit, the previous unit will continue to be built. A King Unit can Upgrade to another King Unit so you have choices of what ships you want to continue to be built. Example: WW1 Battleship, buildable, upgrades to Refitted King Unit Battleship and it upgrades to the WW2 Battleship King Unit. These WW2 Battleships could Upgrade again to yet another Modern Battleship that does not need to be a King Unit. The 1st WW1 Battleships would continue to be able to be built but because they would be far lesser units, the AI would not tend to build them.
I am sure you have seen the AI not build a Unit that they can because it is lesser than what they can build at the same era. What I am saying is that perhaps you do not need to worry about whether an earlier WW1 Ship can continue to be built because the AI favors the best units. Try Setting your WW1 Ships as buildable and have them Upgrade to Refitted King Units and then have those refitted King Units Upgrade to King Units if you do not want them Built and if you do want the Upgrades Buildable, set them as Non King Units. You could mix and match this with different CIVs so some Modern Battleships will be buildable and some Not depending on the King Unit Setting. Just keep in mind that if a Buildable unit Upgrades to a King Unit, the Buildable unit will continue to be able to be built.
This situation is very problematic and has caused me the same problems to get around.
One last point is that IF you set a Unit to Upgrade to another Unit typed in the Upgrade Slot in the Editor but Not Check the Upgrade Box, the unit will become Obsolete and not be able to be built But the Civilopedia will still state that the unit Upgrades to the stated unit which it will not.
Ares de Borg
Norman Knight
Vuldacon, thank you for your help. I've now returned to the more classical way of unit management. In a nutshell, I'm using three techs for ww1 - ww2 ships. Older ships will made obsolete by the following units in the upgrade chain. So this is pretty much the old technique, without King units. Sadly, ships like the Iowa with her various refits later in the tech tree remain buildable. Well, the game engine isn't perfect as we know.
Ares de Borge... Yes, I see the problem for the single Iowa Ship for example.
I also realize that your Game is Not a Scenario where you can pre-place anything...otherwise you could simply pre-place the Iowa and the Other one of a kind Ships.
You could have the Iowa auto Built so there is only one ...set up a requirement that does not last along with the number of turns to be able to Produce just one... then all "Refits" can be set as King Unit Upgrades when you want them to be available and the CIV that can gain the IOWA Flagged in the Editor. The Upgrades (Refits) will show as Upgrades in the Civilopedia and these Upgrades cannot be built.
I believe you mentioned that you already have so many Wonders that you cannot add more so you could use an improvement that is limited to just one City by a Resource or combination of them but again, this would not be managable since you cannot dictate when and where a City will be built.
What we all need in the Editor is a Box we could Flag that allowed only One Unit to be built by a civ, period... No matter how many cities they have or even if the Unit is later destroyed. (like a Wonder that is applied to a Unit) Even if the AI had many cities trying to build the Unit, when one is built, that is it and the others cannot then complete and would have to be changed to something else. I will call this Setting the "Wonder Unit"
I also realize that your Game is Not a Scenario where you can pre-place anything...otherwise you could simply pre-place the Iowa and the Other one of a kind Ships.
You could have the Iowa auto Built so there is only one ...set up a requirement that does not last along with the number of turns to be able to Produce just one... then all "Refits" can be set as King Unit Upgrades when you want them to be available and the CIV that can gain the IOWA Flagged in the Editor. The Upgrades (Refits) will show as Upgrades in the Civilopedia and these Upgrades cannot be built.
I believe you mentioned that you already have so many Wonders that you cannot add more so you could use an improvement that is limited to just one City by a Resource or combination of them but again, this would not be managable since you cannot dictate when and where a City will be built.
What we all need in the Editor is a Box we could Flag that allowed only One Unit to be built by a civ, period... No matter how many cities they have or even if the Unit is later destroyed. (like a Wonder that is applied to a Unit) Even if the AI had many cities trying to build the Unit, when one is built, that is it and the others cannot then complete and would have to be changed to something else. I will call this Setting the "Wonder Unit"
vingrjoe
Landlocked Shipwright
Have that, with the addition of a directly related box that you can set the number of allowable units to ever be built. Example, if you only want four Iowas ever to be built, even if one gets destroyed.
CivIV does have this option...kinda..expect when a unit is destroyed, you can build another to replace it, but no more than x amount of that unit ingame at one time.
vingrjoe
Landlocked Shipwright
No, and I probably won't ever.
I bought CivIV and all it's expansions in the hope that the AI would know how to fight sea battles. It doesn't, the AI is still stupid in regards to Naval Warfare. I was hoping it would assign ASW and AAW escorts for it's capital ships, but no luck.
I've cooled off from Civ3 and have been playing and modding Pacific Storm Allies. It's a pretty good game. They squashed alot of bugs with the first patch, however some small glitches are still left. The game is about building bases and naval fleets, and slugging it out with the Japs or Americans (whoever you decide to play against) in the Pacific during WWII. The 3D gfx are a little dated, but still impressive. The ship models are much better than unit gfx in CivIV. But I am talking about completely different games here.
Sorry for the threadjack.
Vingrjoe... Yes...that is the Reason why CIV III/Conquest is still being used for MODs. With all its difficulties and things we would all like the Editor to have that it does not...it is after all at least "User Friendly" for MODs and Scenarios where we can make and add units we want.
Your Ships are Extraordinarily Good and are great to have in CIV III/Conquest
Your Ships are Extraordinarily Good and are great to have in CIV III/Conquest
A small bump to get confirmation, for something I would like to do in my Napoleonic wars scenario.
I want that in Bavarian cities, only Bavarian units can be built. If build by Bavaria, they should be strong, let say 5/5.
If build by France, they should be 4/4, as Bavarian was an ally of France.
And if build by another country, let say Russia, they should be 3/3.
To do this, I plan to use improvment to generate the units, and with "resource in city radius".
Now, for the upgrade, it seems I will need the "king" flag, so it cannot be build directly.
Here is what I plan to do:
- The building generates "Bavarian line infantry (coalition)", which is a 3/3. This unit is available to no one, and can be built only by the improvment.
- The French have access to the "Bavarian line infantry (allied)" which is 4/4, but is marked as king. So it cannot be build directly.
- The Bavarian have access to the "Bavarian line infantry", which is 5/5, and is marked as king.
Bavarian line infantry (coalition) upgrades to Bavarian line infantry (allied) which upgrades to Bavarian line infantry.
With this, the Bavarian line infantry (coalition) is produced for everyone. The Russian cannot make it better (it will be 3/3). The French can upgrade it to 4/4, and the Bavarian to 5/5.
No one can create it directly.
Is that correct?
I want that in Bavarian cities, only Bavarian units can be built. If build by Bavaria, they should be strong, let say 5/5.
If build by France, they should be 4/4, as Bavarian was an ally of France.
And if build by another country, let say Russia, they should be 3/3.
To do this, I plan to use improvment to generate the units, and with "resource in city radius".
Now, for the upgrade, it seems I will need the "king" flag, so it cannot be build directly.
Here is what I plan to do:
- The building generates "Bavarian line infantry (coalition)", which is a 3/3. This unit is available to no one, and can be built only by the improvment.
- The French have access to the "Bavarian line infantry (allied)" which is 4/4, but is marked as king. So it cannot be build directly.
- The Bavarian have access to the "Bavarian line infantry", which is 5/5, and is marked as king.
Bavarian line infantry (coalition) upgrades to Bavarian line infantry (allied) which upgrades to Bavarian line infantry.
With this, the Bavarian line infantry (coalition) is produced for everyone. The Russian cannot make it better (it will be 3/3). The French can upgrade it to 4/4, and the Bavarian to 5/5.
No one can create it directly.
Is that correct?
As long as Bavarian line infantry (coalition) is unbuildable (improvement created), and there's an upgrade path that goes (coalition - allied - bavarian) and the civs able to build some version of it are selected in it's civ list, then yea, should work just like that
Im going to use a similar system in my mod for mercenary/auxiliar units with a twist: Each civ have a civ specific "cultural" improvement that makes a Peasant unit, you can build your own civ's improvement and other civ's too because they need strategic resources inside city radious, pre placed on the map in each civ's starting location, so if you conquer or build cities near the Celts cultural resource for instances, you can build the Celt Culture improvement, which generates Celt Peasants. If you play as the Celts, you can only upgrade the Celt Peasant to a Celt Settler, but if you play as the Romans for instances and conquer the Celt capital or any other city in range of the Celt Culture resource, and build the improvement and get the Celt peasant, you can upgrade it to a Celt Auxiliar which looks like a Celt unit but with less strenght. This is done by making the Celt Peasant upgrade to a Celt Settler (available to the Celts only) and then to a Celt Auxiliar (available to everyone but the Celts). Cool way to implement both a mercenary system and to limit AI expantion by making it necessary to have enough gold to improve native peasants!
Im going to use a similar system in my mod for mercenary/auxiliar units with a twist: Each civ have a civ specific "cultural" improvement that makes a Peasant unit, you can build your own civ's improvement and other civ's too because they need strategic resources inside city radious, pre placed on the map in each civ's starting location, so if you conquer or build cities near the Celts cultural resource for instances, you can build the Celt Culture improvement, which generates Celt Peasants. If you play as the Celts, you can only upgrade the Celt Peasant to a Celt Settler, but if you play as the Romans for instances and conquer the Celt capital or any other city in range of the Celt Culture resource, and build the improvement and get the Celt peasant, you can upgrade it to a Celt Auxiliar which looks like a Celt unit but with less strenght. This is done by making the Celt Peasant upgrade to a Celt Settler (available to the Celts only) and then to a Celt Auxiliar (available to everyone but the Celts). Cool way to implement both a mercenary system and to limit AI expantion by making it necessary to have enough gold to improve native peasants!
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