Korea....

[DarkOpus]

Whilst I find the lack of Babylon a surprising choice (especially given the inclusion of the Hanging Gardens) I wouldn't be averse to seeing a 'Cradle of Civilization' expansion.

Babylon, Sumer and assorted other mesopotamian cultures could be included here. Even Jericho (the first permanent human settlement) could feature. A map stretching as far as west as Greeece and as far East as the Indus valley would be perfect.

I urge Firaxis to get onto this, if only to quiet the Babylon moaners!

 

[Evie]

Babylon should have been in (well, one of the Mesopotamian cultures, anyway), but that doesn't meak Korea should not be in.

The one civ that would most deserve being cut to make room for Babylon is the Zulu. They were barely a blip on the radar, only famous because they won one battle against the odds and someone made a movie out of it. (The overall Bantu culture of which they are part MIGHT qualify).

Korea, comparatively, has been in more-or-less continued existence for near two thousand years, excepting being occupied for a brief fifty years or so in the early twentieth century (as opposed to the Hebrew state which existed only for brief moments between this and that regional power occupying the area). They contributed significantly to the invention of printing (the oldest known printed text is Korean, dating back to pre-750 AD ; Korean scholars also invented metal movable types), along with China (Guttenberg came up with the same idea a few hundred years later), they also came up with some of the earliest ironclad warships (arguably the earliest, although Japan can challenge that claim).

 

[LeConquerant]

Hell I don't even think they should include Mongol in the first place

because conquerring the largest land empire ever, would not qualify that civ for being in the shortlist??? correct me if I am wrong, but from what I recall they took over China, rased down the arabic empires the european crusaders were having 'difficulties' with, and even made it up to Vienna walls... check a map and a history book, but nobody ever did that, and not a such a short time 3-4 generations.

If looking for an agressive civ in History which did the land grab agressive Civers all dream of, it's the Khan's horde!!!

(on a different note, the Y chromosome of Genghis Kahn is likely to be the most widespread in nowaday's world... only for this he would qualify as a leader. Agressive and Accessible +3 health points per city )

 

[armchairknight]

korea is on leavel with all those civs.
infact. those civs are much more worthy then the vikings or celts

When you think of Celts, are you thinking only of the Irish, Welsh, and Scottish? Is that why you say this? The Celts covered much of Europe in their day and made Rome tremble at the mention of their name. You might enjoy learning more of the proud and accomplished Celts. You also belittle the Scandinavian Vikings. Admittedly they are no England, but they were a powerful force in shaping 9th and 10th century Europe and are still spoken of in popular culture more than a thousand years later and thousands of miles away from their homelands. In fact the Smithsonian has Viking relics on view for the education of the public.

I'm glad that Korea is in Warlords. I've never understood why Korea is so easy to overlook.

 

[Xanikk999]

Babylon should have been in (well, one of the Mesopotamian cultures, anyway), but that doesn't meak Korea should not be in.

The one civ that would most deserve being cut to make room for Babylon is the Zulu. They were barely a blip on the radar, only famous because they won one battle against the odds and someone made a movie out of it. (The overall Bantu culture of which they are part MIGHT qualify).

Korea, comparatively, has been in more-or-less continued existence for near two thousand years, excepting being occupied for a brief fifty years or so in the early twentieth century (as opposed to the Hebrew state which existed only for brief moments between this and that regional power occupying the area). They contributed significantly to the invention of printing (the oldest known printed text is Korean, dating back to pre-750 AD ; Korean scholars also invented metal movable types), along with China (Guttenberg came up with the same idea a few hundred years later), they also came up with some of the earliest ironclad warships (arguably the earliest, although Japan can challenge that claim).

The zulus arent even in civ 4. And as for civ3 korea was in one of the expansions along with the zulus in the vanilla version.

 

[Technocactus]

The zulus arent even in civ 4. And as for civ3 korea was in one of the expansions along with the zulus in the vanilla version.

The Zulus are definitely in the expansion. And expansion civs appears to be the subject of discussion.

 

[Xanikk999]

The Zulus are definitely in the expansion. And expansion civs appears to be the subject of discussion.

Well to be fair i will argue we should have more then one civ from africa outside ancient egypt.

We already have 3 distinct cultures in far east asia but we dont have an african nation from around the industrial ages.

China was around throughout history from even before 600 BC to modern times. And japanese civilization was around from the yamato era to modern times as well, but started a bit later then chinese civilization if you dont count the japanese Joman era. And you have the mongols as well representing the middle ages in far east asia.

However much of african history is left out and i feel the zulus are a more distinct culture then africa compared to koreas distinctness from china and japan.

 

[Osymandias]

i can't understand why some say that a civ is not cIV-worthy.....
is there a top30-civs-of-the-world-list? or the top5-of-the-oldest, mightiest, advanced? when you say, what civ cIV-worthy is, of what criteria are you thinking of it has to match? most advanced? most military power? greatest territory? if you look at those criterias than only a handfull of civs will remain and none of them would be from the ancient times....(excluded medieval mongolia in 1 criteria)
in my opinion every civ, nation even every ethnity IS worthy to be in civ! civ is a *what if..." game. what if the aboriginies had settled down and founded a civilization? what if the zulus had been the roman pendand in africa and south europe? what if the american cultures had conquered europe......
there is no *not worthy to be in cIV*.....
for sure, the developers have to chose wich is *worthy* to get in the offical release, but some of the statements are very subjective.
and besides: if you want a special civ included then mod it in. it's so easy to do and to learn. i've done several civs that will NEVER ever be in a civ-game(Except scenarios perhaps): bavaria, scotland, austria and some of my own imaginary.....it is wunderbar to mod in an own, unique civ. if israel or the hebrews aren't in the offical release, do it yourself.
i will do it when i have time for my own mod.

 

[Koelle]

Babylon should have been in (well, one of the Mesopotamian cultures, anyway), but that doesn't meak Korea should not be in.

The one civ that would most deserve being cut to make room for Babylon is the Zulu. They were barely a blip on the radar, only famous because they won one battle against the odds and someone made a movie out of it. (The overall Bantu culture of which they are part MIGHT qualify).

Korea, comparatively, has been in more-or-less continued existence for near two thousand years, excepting being occupied for a brief fifty years or so in the early twentieth century (as opposed to the Hebrew state which existed only for brief moments between this and that regional power occupying the area). They contributed significantly to the invention of printing (the oldest known printed text is Korean, dating back to pre-750 AD ; Korean scholars also invented metal movable types), along with China (Guttenberg came up with the same idea a few hundred years later), they also came up with some of the earliest ironclad warships (arguably the earliest, although Japan can challenge that claim).

What you said above only makes point that Korea shouldnt be in. What they have done in their whole history. Almost nothing. Never heard about the Korean printed text anyway. If there were any, they must have been written in Chinese. Plz dont tell me that the Koreans invented printing before their alphabets. And as the expansion name is Warlords, it just doesnt make sense to include the Koreans, who never won a war. They might claim winning a battle against Japan (with help from the Chinese) but the Japan at that time were by no means as important as Japan today. It's not that i underestimate the Koreans but they (might) have taken the place of other more important civs. Pity!

 

[troytheface]

glad to see they are bringing back the Zulu.

The expansion is entitled Warlords so they have added a Great Person unit and i assume chose civs that had warlord type of beginnings (course that is probably every civ)

One area they seem to miss out on is eastern europe -
(some mentioned Poland and i read a post about Bulgaria- and i am thinking to meself....)
...The "Celts" can kinda represent central Europe tribes, the "Zulu" african tribes, the Vikings the far northern tribes, the Mongols the eastern tribes ....

....but what about eastern european tribes? A void there. (maybe the Ottomens or the Arabs?)

Korea is a good choice as well. Lest us not forget- them asian countires were just like european ones in that they were always fight'n each other.

 

[Evie]

What you said above only makes point that Korea shouldnt be in. What they have done in their whole history. Almost nothing.

Aside from being among the earliest civs to develop the printing press, the ironclad, and keeping control of the area by their culture (whether divided in small kingdom of the Shilla sort, or unified) for a few thousand years, which is more than most civ can claim...

Never heard about the Korean printed text anyway.

Korea (and myself) are not responsible for your lacking knowledge of the matter.

If there were any, they must have been written in Chinese. Plz dont tell me that the Koreans invented printing before their alphabets.

Why not? The Germans (in the person of Guttenberg) created their own removeable type printing before Germans invented an alphabet. Why, last I checked, it's been five century and more since Gutenberg's invention...and the Germans STILL haven't adopted their own alphabet and are STILL using the old Roman one.

Yes, they used the Chinesse characters in early printed documents.

And as the expansion name is Warlords, it just doesnt make sense to include the Koreans, who never won a war. They might claim winning a battle against Japan (with help from the Chinese) but the Japanese at that time were no better than barbarians.

Did you just call 16th-century Japan "no better than barbarians"? Because that pretty much amounts to calling any and all culture of any and all pre-enlightenment country "no better than barbarians". For that matter, that amount to stating that Japan has no place as a civ in Civilization IV, since the Japan that invaded Korea and the Japan of Tokugawa Ieyasu are for all practical purpose the same (after all, Ieyasu took power just over a decade after the Korean expedition).

It's not that i underestimate the Koreans but they (might) have taken the place of other more importance civs. Pity!

And as *I* said, there are far less important civs than Korea on the list, the first and foremost of which is the Zulu. They're cool, no doubt, but if you want to focus on which civ is/was important - Zululand just doesn't cut it.

(As far as giving Africa representation, there are much more deserving African civilizations : Ghana/Mali/Songhay was one (and finally got its due recognition in IV), and Ethiopia is the other big one).

The one argument I can concede is that Korea in Warlord is a bit silly ; it should have been either in Vanilla instead of Mongolia (and Mongolia in Warlord where it is particularly fitting), or else kept back for a second expansion alongside other "small" countries (refering to their heartland, not any colonies they might possess), such as Netherlands and Portugal.

 

[SuperBeaverInc.]

I would have much rather had the Babylonians instead of the Koreans.

 

[BCLG100]

The fact that Babylonians haven't been introduced in the game is the most important sign that there will be a second exp. in my opinion, from a marketing point of view it would be a great mistake adding all most important civs in one xp and leave the less known for the second xp.
One thing that seems really strange to me is the fact that only a few complain because Netherlands and Portugal weren't introduced.
Netherlands was the world trade leader before the rise of the British Empire, while Portugal was the second largest empire after Spain in 1500-1600, so they should deserve more attention.

saving them for the next expansion pack me thinks

 

[magush]

a very unnecessary post, some very ignorant comments. i don't know where to start. might as well start at the beginning.

it is obvious that the designers do not pick the civilizations according to history. history is just a loose collection of guidelines for the Civilization series, as any astute player will recognize. pointless discussions about whether America should have been included or not (or the Ottomans, or the Koreans, or the Zulus) have all been done before, and beating them with a stick won't make them any more dead.

although i'm not against discussions in any form, those that do not contribute any value to anyone, and that include naming some people's nations barbaric should not be allowed to continue.

if you please, do read some history books to find out that no social event or status can be understood outside its context, which is exactly what one poster did with calling the Japanese barbaric. Zulu has been here since the beginning, and i'm sure Shaka(?) will add some flavor to our gameplay. i do miss Babylon, but i'm sure that Hammurabi will make his appearance in due time, or he'll sue the designers for his copyright on Code of Laws(tm). all in all, i have full faith in the designers of Civilization in continuing to do what they've been doing for the larger part of my life. otherwise Sid wouldn't allow them to lay hands on this, the most sacred of titles. am i right or what?

so, in closing, a little more faith, and a little more respect.

 

[Ninjatrey]

Ugh. Korea made it into the expansion pack.

I don't mind any of the other choices (Zulu, Carthage, Ottomans, Vikings, Celts), but Korea just isn't worthy. I'm not saying Korea has no importance but other civilizations are just so much more important like:

-Babylon/Sumeria
-Byzantium (I understand this because Ottomans made it in)
-Maya
-Hebrews/Israel
-Austria
-Portugal
-Holland

What's with the Firaxis obession with Korea?

Well other then bringing buddism to japan and the korean war they wern't to influential

 

[Koelle]

text edited. I didnt mean to call anyone babaric. I just meant they were weak at that time. Zulu in the expansion is also out of my expectation but even if they weren't in, their place would go to Babylon, Maya or Israel. Korea, as i said before, has taken the place of more important asian civs like Khmer, Vietnam or Siam. I bet Sid doesnt know that Koreans only stick with RTS and MMORPG and they wont buy his game even though he has done them lots of favors recently

 

[Evie]

Khmer, Vietnam and Siam MORE important than Korea?

I'm sorry, but there's just no way that works out. Vietnam comes closest (they are, in fact, very similar, just with Korea coming up with more noticeable technological achievements (printing, ironclads, etc)) ; the ancestor states of Siam and the Khmer really did not form until well into the ADs (around 600 AD for the Khmer ; 1000+ AD for Siam).

If I were to rank the six asian civs mentioned to date, it'd clearly go China (obvious first), Japan (simply because it stayed relatively powerful far longer than the Mongols), Mongolia, Korea, Vietnam (by virtue of simply not being as technologically forward as Korea), Siam, Khmer.

 

[HourlyDaily]

What you said above only makes point that Korea shouldnt be in. What they have done in their whole history. Almost nothing. Never heard about the Korean printed text anyway. If there were any, they must have been written in Chinese. Plz dont tell me that the Koreans invented printing before their alphabets. And as the expansion name is Warlords, it just doesnt make sense to include the Koreans, who never won a war. They might claim winning a battle against Japan (with help from the Chinese) but the Japan at that time were by no means as important as Japan today. It's not that i underestimate the Koreans but they (might) have taken the place of other more important civs. Pity!

No real offense intended but this is what I love/hate about CivFanatics - because I haven't heard about something, it musn't be important. Mate - play Empire Earth II for a crash course on the Koreans and how many battles they won. You try resisting China by winning wars over thousands of years and retaining your own unique culture.

The Civs chosen were the civs chosen, all have a good claim to be there. Use mods if your preferred choice has missed out. Oh and leave the Celts alone. That about covers my standard post.

 

[anonyguru]

well.. no offense, but I want others just know about it before argue or criticize, especially somewhat sensitive things like this. Just plz read once.

Never heard about the Korean printed text anyway. If there were any, they must have been written in Chinese. Plz dont tell me that the Koreans invented printing before their alphabets.

Well.. Koreans did use wooden printing very very long before they invented Korean 'Letter' system, and have the world's oldest metal print book - the Jikji. Just visit here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jikji
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printing_press (section 'Movable type')

And the reason these are all written in chinese letters are that korean did not have their own letter system at that time. However, Korean existed as a spoken language(like today's Bahasa Indonesian), and there is a lyric in Korean dated back to BC17. And Chosun dynasty's King Sejong ordered and led the Korean letter project and it was finally "published" in AD 1446; thus the Hangul(Korean) has a 'birthday' and it's Oct. 9th which is a national memorial day in South Korea.

And as the expansion name is Warlords, it just doesnt make sense to include the Koreans, who never won a war. They might claim winning a battle against Japan (with help from the Chinese) but the Japan at that time were by no means as important as Japan today. It's not that i underestimate the Koreans but they (might) have taken the place of other more important civs. Pity!

Throughout the entire history, Koreans have NEVER triggered a single war with neighbors. And I don't think it was a victory when they defeated Toyotomi Hideyoshi's invasion either, cuz it was a successful defense after all. But there are so many triumphal defeats in Korean history, most of which are always outnumbered and hopeless, and I think most of these are not just meaningless. You can read about the great triumphal defeat led by the Admiral Yi Sun-Shin here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_sun_shin (section 'Seven-Year War')

I truely believe that he was even greater than the famous Lord Nelson in some way. Admiral Yi is just not well-known and under-estimated as not belongs to a 'famous' history.


And plus, think about the Confucianism in Civ4. Korea is now the only country that you can still find Confucianistic culture and customs. I don't like it though, but Korean are still Confucianistic in many ways espacially among old people or many official situations. Chosun dynasty(1392~1910) was a complete confucianism kingdom, while the confucianism was severly diminishing under the rule of Qing dynasty in China. Confucianism has been preserved and matured for more that 500 years since the fall of Ming dynasty in China. Though Confucianism is rather like a cultural base, not like a religion, the 'Sung Kyun Kwan' in Seoul is now considered as a central academy of Confucianism of the world, and they are still doing confucianistic ceremony regularly celebrating the Confucian. The Pope John Paul II visited here, as a holy place of the Confucianism, for him being head of the Catholic. I think this can make Korea somewhat more worth being one of the expansion culture.

 

[Shaihulud]

Korea occupies a very nice niche in asia, while the fertile crescent is too overcrowded at this point in time. Another Middle Eastern Civilization will not be very exciting, however i will like the Netherlands to be in as well, what are the Celts? They are hardly homogenous and have disparate cultures. Better to call a Japanese or Korean Chinese.