Korea....
- Thread starter Elponitnatsnoc
- Start date
yeah, Koreans can be some brutal people, free of guilt because they've been oppressed for so long. Cheju/Jeju Island is another good example, not to mention the North Korean concentration camps operating as we speak. When you go a bit on a tangent though, you gotta keep it short and to the point, that was annoying.
the koreans killing commies sure does make for some good movies though, Shiri, Tae Guk Gi, J.S.A.
the koreans killing commies sure does make for some good movies though, Shiri, Tae Guk Gi, J.S.A.
Elponitnatsnoc
Master Debater
I have already stated that Korea should not be in the game, but not because of the already-stated massacres.
The Romans, Persians, British, GERMANS, Russians, Spanish weren't particularly merciful. And the Aztecs? Oh wait, all of the Civ's had their low points in terms of morality, though all of these civs have more merit than Korea in terms of achievements. I still don't understand what the defining factor of Korea is...
For instance:
America: argueably biggest superpower ever
Arabs: Huge empire and major cultural and scientific achievements
Aztecs: For ethnic diversity, Dominant force in region, filler in world map
China: There's too much to name
Egypt: see China
England: See China
France: See CHina
Germany: Always a major power even when it wasn't unified
Greece: scientific and military achievements
Inca: Dominant power and filler in world map
India: See China
Japan: Military power, Victories over China, never conquered etc.
Mali: This is mainly world map filler, but IMO more "worhty" than Korea because of tremendous wealth, education, trade.
Mongols: Largest continuous empire ever.
Persia: Ancient juggernaut
Rome: See China
Russia: See China
Spain: Huge colonial empire, power
Vikings: Proven to be most powerful during the middle ages
Zulu: Regional Power, threatened a huge and powerful empire, I kind of compare them to Carthage who everyone agrees should be in.
Celts: This is iffy because they never really had a unified state, but the ethnic group as a whole was extremely militaristic and powerful.
Ottomans: Huge empire
Carthage: Regional Power, who was eventually crushed by Rome. I think Phoenicia should be in instead of Carthage as Carthage was really a Phoenician colony.
And then we have Korea, who has survived for a while, but so have other civilizations like China, Greece, Japan, India. Yet, everyone agrees that China, Greece, Japan, and India have made a larger contribution to contemporary society than Korea. China and Japan were dominators of the region, Korea was a merely a patch of land which Japan and China competed for. Korea was never regarded as a world power OR a regional power in terms of military, science, or culture. (unless you count North Korea today).
The more I think about this, the more angry I get. The first thing I am going to do when I get Warlords is mod Israel (because I like Israel) in and mod Korea OUT.
The Romans, Persians, British, GERMANS, Russians, Spanish weren't particularly merciful. And the Aztecs? Oh wait, all of the Civ's had their low points in terms of morality, though all of these civs have more merit than Korea in terms of achievements. I still don't understand what the defining factor of Korea is...
For instance:
America: argueably biggest superpower ever
Arabs: Huge empire and major cultural and scientific achievements
Aztecs: For ethnic diversity, Dominant force in region, filler in world map
China: There's too much to name
Egypt: see China
England: See China
France: See CHina
Germany: Always a major power even when it wasn't unified
Greece: scientific and military achievements
Inca: Dominant power and filler in world map
India: See China
Japan: Military power, Victories over China, never conquered etc.
Mali: This is mainly world map filler, but IMO more "worhty" than Korea because of tremendous wealth, education, trade.
Mongols: Largest continuous empire ever.
Persia: Ancient juggernaut
Rome: See China
Russia: See China
Spain: Huge colonial empire, power
Vikings: Proven to be most powerful during the middle ages
Zulu: Regional Power, threatened a huge and powerful empire, I kind of compare them to Carthage who everyone agrees should be in.
Celts: This is iffy because they never really had a unified state, but the ethnic group as a whole was extremely militaristic and powerful.
Ottomans: Huge empire
Carthage: Regional Power, who was eventually crushed by Rome. I think Phoenicia should be in instead of Carthage as Carthage was really a Phoenician colony.
And then we have Korea, who has survived for a while, but so have other civilizations like China, Greece, Japan, India. Yet, everyone agrees that China, Greece, Japan, and India have made a larger contribution to contemporary society than Korea. China and Japan were dominators of the region, Korea was a merely a patch of land which Japan and China competed for. Korea was never regarded as a world power OR a regional power in terms of military, science, or culture. (unless you count North Korea today).
The more I think about this, the more angry I get. The first thing I am going to do when I get Warlords is mod Israel (because I like Israel) in and mod Korea OUT.
I see your points, celts are pretty weak too. I don't think "map filler" is a great reason because those spots are filled by barb cities anyway.
Aztecs are a stand in for related groups such as the Zapotecs, one of the most famous zapotecs is Benito Juarez, the greatest president of mexico. So I think they could segway that into modern leaders without much trouble. Simon Bolivar would also be good as a more modern Inca. I guess what I'm saying is it's like how Carthage stands for a more well known later development of Phoenician civilization. This actually weakens the case for Celts, because they can easily be filed under France and England except for maybe Ireland and Scotland.
Aztecs are a stand in for related groups such as the Zapotecs, one of the most famous zapotecs is Benito Juarez, the greatest president of mexico. So I think they could segway that into modern leaders without much trouble. Simon Bolivar would also be good as a more modern Inca. I guess what I'm saying is it's like how Carthage stands for a more well known later development of Phoenician civilization. This actually weakens the case for Celts, because they can easily be filed under France and England except for maybe Ireland and Scotland.
What? Israel instead of Korea?Elponitnatsnoc said:
Israel was non-existent county in history during last 2000 years. There were Jewish people around history but NO Jewish state or something that can be callled as "Israeli Civilization" before 1945. i.e. They were not much different from Curd people in Iraq or Gipsy people in Eurpope or Palestain people today before then in that they were just one of many ethnic groups without their own political nation with territory and national border. And even in 2000 years ago, Israeli nation was far from "regional-power" or great civilization or anything that worth a seat in Expansion pack. It was just small, weak, poor region, enslaved by Egyptian or Romans, always in conflict and quarrel or dispute, just like today. Much more miserable and sorry state than that of Korea of that time.. Koreans of that age successfully driven all Chinese presence out of Korean peninsular and Machurian territory.
And in terms of current national GDP or population/territory area or military power, Israel is not equal in status with Korea. It should be compared with smaller nations like Netherland or Denmark.
On the counrary, Korea continued to exist during last 2000 years as distinct and continuous Kingdom in same territory with distinct language, culture, ethnic group, and sovereign authority.. everythin that constitutes "Civilization".
The only reason that I imagine that Israel should be chosen as Expansion Civ is that it is home of Christianity. But that was 2000 yers ago.
The movement and report you quoted were all originated and led by the Korean people.Koelle said:
They feel sorry for it and want to reveal their own embarassing old wrong-doings and apologize to Vietnam people and asking them to forgive their historical bad deed.
At least, they are much better than Japanese who trys to deny or hide their old war crimes (in WW-II) and even beautify it as patriotic act. Prime Minister of Japan regularly visits and bows to shrine of convicted WW-II capital war criminals. Did U.S. president ever apologized to Vietnam people on war crime commited by U.S Army during Vietnam war ?
What a difference in attitues. What is civilized way of dealing with their nation's old skeltons in the closet? It seems that Korean are acting in more civilized way than Japan or USA.
I don't deny there were some war crimes commited by Korean soldier during Vietnam War.. It is sad and sorry thing.
I am not an any expert on war crime but I can say that such kind of war crime were always existed throughout all human history and history of war. And will be even in future war.
You can find many similar war cimes commited by U.S. Army in the Vietnam or Gulf war or more recent Iraqi war.
And if you choose to, you can find such horrible crimes commited by German soldiers in WW-II except than so-called Holocaust. (I guess you are a German from your location).
I am not talking about US. Army or Geman soldier, but soldier in general. Some soldier of ANY nationality commits war crime in times of war. There was no exception in that.
So these sad incidence does not diminish prowness of Korean soldiers fought in Vietnam war.
Do you have any proof or statistics that shows that Korean soldiers commited higher incidence of war crime or more savage war crime than soldiers of any other nationalities?
.
Simply reading the Old Testament and looking at world history maps would clearly show that Israel has existed for a long time as an independent kingdom, whose contributions to culture and religion are huge. It's almost impossible to describe the huge impact the Israelites and their descendants have had. Granted, the Assyrians conquered northern Israel (Samaria) and then the Babylonians conquered southern Israel (Judah, including Jerusalem) afterwards, but even after the conquest the Israeli people eventually returned to Jerusalem under Persian rule. All things considered, prior to the Assyrian conquest, Israel was a major power in their region. Alas, all of this combined is probably not enough to make it a playable civ in the game. Then again, how is Korea any better?
Besides, the ancestors of Israel are of the same linguistic group as the Arabs. Both are Semitic. So, in a way, the Arabs include Israel, despite modern political divisions. Just a thought that is way off topic and easily disputed. Heck, I don't even agree with that. Just one POV to think about.
Anyways, as for Korea... I love including them.
Besides, the ancestors of Israel are of the same linguistic group as the Arabs. Both are Semitic. So, in a way, the Arabs include Israel, despite modern political divisions. Just a thought that is way off topic and easily disputed. Heck, I don't even agree with that. Just one POV to think about.
Anyways, as for Korea... I love including them.
diablodelmar
no comment
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2006
- Messages
- 945
There is always expansion no. 2...
btw we need to have more Native American civs!
btw we need to have more Native American civs!
Koelle
King of Kings
zx1111 said:
Let bygones be bygones, as someone said. I personally dont care who commited more savage war crime, war crime is war crime and its just wrong to be proud of it or see it as a reason to be included in games as a "civilization"
SilentDemon
Warlord
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2006
- Messages
- 150
I don't think Israel or Korea have achieved enough to be considered "Great Civilizations." They definately are not on par with the rest of the cantidates.
Evie
Pronounced like Eevee
Sohan said:
A major power in their region? LOL.
Israel, much like Korea, is the arch-typical "Small nations wedged between larger powers" (Egypt, Phoenicia, Hittites, Babylon, etc). Outside the 20th-century Israel, they have never been militarily dominant, and in fact struggled to maintain their very existence most of what said existence lasted.
The fact that Israel's land spent most of recorded history under non-Israel control doesn't help their case either. On the other hand, Israel has made a very significant contribution to the development of western culture in the form of Judaism (and its two derived religions, Christianism and Islam).
I don't agree the people saying Korea and Israel do not belong, though. From a historical perspective, these civs were immensely more succesful (and worthy of inclusion) than many of the civs already in IV and Warlord. (Vikings and Zululand, for Warlords (and Carthage and the Celts could have a case made for them)). It just so happens that people are more considered about how "cool" a civ was (ie, wars and battles won, conquest, etc) than into actual historical success, which has a lot more to do with longevity than winning or losing wars).
Older than Dirt
King
Well, this ought to really tic off the Poles and Scythians.
About Israeli or Hebrew contiribution to World history:
Something that most people forget is that it is not Israeli people but Roman people who made the Chirstianity the most successful religion.
If Israel was not enslaved by Roman people, and Chritianity was not propagated in the Empire, it would have ended up as one of small ethnic religion like Judaism or Sikihism. AFAIK, Judaism does not make into World top-10 religion.
If any other similarly contagious religion has succeeded in Roman Empire at right time, it would have been the world No.1 Religion instead of Christianity.
In that matter, Christianity was very very lucky religion.
There is virtually no contribution of Jewish people in success of Christialnity. They are just biological father or mother (like sperm or egg donner) of Christianity.
Greatest facor of success of Christianity is that he (Christianity) is adopted to very wealty and powerful family of great father and mother (Roman Empire) when he was a baby. and be heir of the the massive influence of Roman culture.
So Iraeli people can not be attributed for success of Christan religion.
I can not see any reason that Israeli Civ should be included in next Civ4 Expansion on the ground of success of Christianity. All glory and credit should be attributed to Roman people.
Something that most people forget is that it is not Israeli people but Roman people who made the Chirstianity the most successful religion.
If Israel was not enslaved by Roman people, and Chritianity was not propagated in the Empire, it would have ended up as one of small ethnic religion like Judaism or Sikihism. AFAIK, Judaism does not make into World top-10 religion.
If any other similarly contagious religion has succeeded in Roman Empire at right time, it would have been the world No.1 Religion instead of Christianity.
In that matter, Christianity was very very lucky religion.
There is virtually no contribution of Jewish people in success of Christialnity. They are just biological father or mother (like sperm or egg donner) of Christianity.
Greatest facor of success of Christianity is that he (Christianity) is adopted to very wealty and powerful family of great father and mother (Roman Empire) when he was a baby. and be heir of the the massive influence of Roman culture.
So Iraeli people can not be attributed for success of Christan religion.
I can not see any reason that Israeli Civ should be included in next Civ4 Expansion on the ground of success of Christianity. All glory and credit should be attributed to Roman people.
gettingfat
Emperor
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2003
- Messages
- 1,417
While I never like some revisionist Koreans who try to glorify Korea in history, Korea was indeed a significant regional power. They defeated Chinese Sui's army (though led by a moronic emperor) twice. They allied with Chinese to stop the powerful Toyotomi's Japanese army twice. Their sea warfare was ahead of China and Japan till industrial era.
Culturally speaking, although they learnt a lot from China and to some extent Japan, Koreans were still able to maintain their own cultural identity. Maybe to a typical westerner "all Orientals look alike", as a Chinese I can easily tell the differences. They developed their own language and writing, which is character-based yet very different from Chinese (unlike Japanese, which still include plenty of Chinese characters). Some posters here claimed their inventions have nothing to do with the world. This is another ridiculous Euro-centered statement. Korea was not isolated from the world. What they developed would get into China and would easily spread to somewhere else.
I can also ask, what have Celts, Austria, Holland, Vikings contributed to Asians? What make them historically more important than a true civ that exist for over 3000 years? Just because they have a more important role in European history does not automatically mean they are more important in the "world".
It's even more ridiculous to mention those massacre stuff. Roman's entertainment was about watching some glorified slave warriors fighting lions (and people still enjoy watching movies like this). Alexander is "the Great" because he's a peace loving hippy? Oh, how did the Americans get their "land of the free" and build their lovely naton? By peacefully persuading the natives to walk away and go back into their jungles, and then making the Africans well paid employees and some Chinese volunteers to build their railroads?
Culturally speaking, although they learnt a lot from China and to some extent Japan, Koreans were still able to maintain their own cultural identity. Maybe to a typical westerner "all Orientals look alike", as a Chinese I can easily tell the differences. They developed their own language and writing, which is character-based yet very different from Chinese (unlike Japanese, which still include plenty of Chinese characters). Some posters here claimed their inventions have nothing to do with the world. This is another ridiculous Euro-centered statement. Korea was not isolated from the world. What they developed would get into China and would easily spread to somewhere else.
I can also ask, what have Celts, Austria, Holland, Vikings contributed to Asians? What make them historically more important than a true civ that exist for over 3000 years? Just because they have a more important role in European history does not automatically mean they are more important in the "world".
It's even more ridiculous to mention those massacre stuff. Roman's entertainment was about watching some glorified slave warriors fighting lions (and people still enjoy watching movies like this). Alexander is "the Great" because he's a peace loving hippy? Oh, how did the Americans get their "land of the free" and build their lovely naton? By peacefully persuading the natives to walk away and go back into their jungles, and then making the Africans well paid employees and some Chinese volunteers to build their railroads?
except it didn't, and thank Buddha because Korean food is an abomination.gettingfat said:
http://archive.salon.com/wlust/feature/1998/10/28feature.html
so yeah, Korean food gets even worse than Kimchi
otomik said:
Just typical reaction of "Euro-centric" and narrow-eyed mind who is ignorant on cultural diversity.
Eating dog meat is their culture not different from eating, say, rabbit or cow.
Dog in Korea was just another domestic animal not much different from pig or chicken.
Western attitue toward dog is not general culture shared by most people in the world.
Please, explain why dog meat should be taboo food, using universal cultural values shared by most of the civilizedl world. There is no such universal taboo cultre on specific food generally shared by the world. Taboo on specific food is very diverse and highly dependent on race, region and religin or tradition.
Showing contempt on food tradition of other people is not much different from rediculeing on skin color of the other people.
Many Korean will be surprised if they know that Westerners enjoy liver of goose which was brutally force-feed and killed in stress.
And the plate of snails... What? Do they eat snail as a food? What a savage food!
Eath is not revloving around the Western countries only.
You are making exactly same kind of mistake as the Asian who did not understand your vergeterian habit did.otomik said:before you lock me up in the cultural re-education camp, lighten up, and pass the chilled monkey brains.
(I am vegetarian, and puzzled by asians thinking you have to be a monk just to be a vegetarian)
The Asian, too, will be puzzeled by your attitude toward the Korean food.
fine, I'll politely explain that where I come from you have to be a monk to eat a turd-eating garbage dump wandering dogzx1111 said:
really though, on a more serious note, I'm finding it difficult to think of Korean innovations that really spread and affected many civilizations.
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