thestonesfan
A Client of Ron Kuby
The concept of "language of thought" has always fascinated me.
What language do dogs think in? Barks?
Language and National Identity
- Thread starter Aphex_Twin
- Start date
The concept of "language of thought" has always fascinated me.
What language do dogs think in? Barks?
Aphex_Twin
Evergreen
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- Sep 7, 2002
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@raen. I doubt English is an easier language to speak. I still haven't gotten my head around that nasty grammar.
funxus
Orange Cycloptic Blob
Or deaf people?Originally posted by thestonesfan
What language do dogs think in? Barks?
I think that although we often use a language when we think, a lot of thinking is also done in other senses. The word "beach" wouldn't mean very much (in any language) if I couldn't think in pictures, feeling, sounds, smell and taste...
Pariah
Outside Influence
Same applies to China. The various "dialects" there as a different as English and German, yet it's definitely a single political and cultural unit.
Singularity
Infinite Density
IMHO;
I think you're thinking primarily in images when you're thinking about things of a physical aspect. This is much faster than first thinking in images and then having to translate it to words.
Constructed or metaphysical aspects are probably more of a mix of thinking of sences like emotions and a specific language that more easily helps you to identify what you're thinking about. For instance the Inuit language has plenty of different words for snow. No wonder really since their reality pretty much is made up of snow. Similarily would a scientist of classic philosophy think in a quasi mix of latin and scientifical english.
A deeply religious session of thoughts would have a few words in the native language of the thinker, but mostly impressions of emotions like hate, love, sadness and regret for instance.
I think we're shaped and moulded into an identity by our emotional language, national language and scientific language. It's this coctail of experiences that govern our identity. It's a neverending journy that makes our identity changing from birth to death.
There are other factors that govern our identity, like incident or varying genetic traits. But language will never stop to tie people together. As long as there is a reason to communicate or put labels on ideas or phenomenas we will all build our identity on what we read, who we meet or what we observe.
To say that germanic, french, spanish or bushman language affect our emotional abilites is nonsence IMO. Science however is often measured in the language of the researchers and will affect our abilities to contribute in the various fields of research. Each language will inadvertedly try to help us put labels on what matters at any given time in our history.
edit:
Just thought about the phenomena of television, music, films and PCs with the internet. English has swept over the world like a tidal wave with the invention of radio, recorded music, movie theathres, hollywood, television, wireless communication, satelites and internet forums. I don't think we've seen a more rapid meltdown of established identities and language in recorded history. Gengis Khan had a similar effect when he swept across asia and east/central europe. He dismantled established institutions that taught a languge that was changing the identities of the people in his path. They probably reverted to traditional identities and established regions of cultural and religious identities. Pretty much the same is being done today by Brad Pitt, Madonna and Sid Meier(not counting the states that insist on dubbing movies and translating games). If you want to keep your identity to stand the test of time you need both a strong national culture and a static language that either make new words associated with the language to grow(like in Iceland), or you keep your old language and ignore fancy new words like Byte and halfpipe.
History, family and friends binds us together into a given identity. But the slow assimilation of english into our language and science will slowly smooth the hard edges of our identity and make us all more alike.
I think you're thinking primarily in images when you're thinking about things of a physical aspect. This is much faster than first thinking in images and then having to translate it to words.
Constructed or metaphysical aspects are probably more of a mix of thinking of sences like emotions and a specific language that more easily helps you to identify what you're thinking about. For instance the Inuit language has plenty of different words for snow. No wonder really since their reality pretty much is made up of snow. Similarily would a scientist of classic philosophy think in a quasi mix of latin and scientifical english.
A deeply religious session of thoughts would have a few words in the native language of the thinker, but mostly impressions of emotions like hate, love, sadness and regret for instance.
I think we're shaped and moulded into an identity by our emotional language, national language and scientific language. It's this coctail of experiences that govern our identity. It's a neverending journy that makes our identity changing from birth to death.
There are other factors that govern our identity, like incident or varying genetic traits. But language will never stop to tie people together. As long as there is a reason to communicate or put labels on ideas or phenomenas we will all build our identity on what we read, who we meet or what we observe.
To say that germanic, french, spanish or bushman language affect our emotional abilites is nonsence IMO. Science however is often measured in the language of the researchers and will affect our abilities to contribute in the various fields of research. Each language will inadvertedly try to help us put labels on what matters at any given time in our history.
edit:
Just thought about the phenomena of television, music, films and PCs with the internet. English has swept over the world like a tidal wave with the invention of radio, recorded music, movie theathres, hollywood, television, wireless communication, satelites and internet forums. I don't think we've seen a more rapid meltdown of established identities and language in recorded history. Gengis Khan had a similar effect when he swept across asia and east/central europe. He dismantled established institutions that taught a languge that was changing the identities of the people in his path. They probably reverted to traditional identities and established regions of cultural and religious identities. Pretty much the same is being done today by Brad Pitt, Madonna and Sid Meier(not counting the states that insist on dubbing movies and translating games). If you want to keep your identity to stand the test of time you need both a strong national culture and a static language that either make new words associated with the language to grow(like in Iceland), or you keep your old language and ignore fancy new words like Byte and halfpipe.
History, family and friends binds us together into a given identity. But the slow assimilation of english into our language and science will slowly smooth the hard edges of our identity and make us all more alike.
Marla_Singer
United in diversity
Well, you're right Pariah but what unites China is the written language. As you know, the written language is about signs and as a consequence it has no real link with spoken languages (not like if it was an alphabet). When you learn Chinese, you learn actually two languages : the spoken mandarin and the written chinese. Cantonese and mandarin are actually as different than french and spanish as you told, however, both are written in the exact same way, which means that if a cantonese wants to be understood by a mandarin, he can still write it down and both will understand !! That sounds great for Chinese Internet forums or chat ! However, I totally agree with you, a nationality is about what we have in common and sharing a past or a culture is often more important than sharing a language.
ybbor
Will not change his avata
well, i'm self teacing myself sign language (got a ASL dictionary, and am looking up words) and i know that sign language is much more emotionaly connected than english is. for instance if you want to express strong emotion, you use the midle finger (i know, you guys would never have guesed) for instance, like (as in i like so-and-so), mercy, and heart use it, along with strong negitives such as pest, and nuisence (a christian uses the middle fingers to sign JESUS, while an athiest would probably use the index finger), in spoken laguages you don't have that if i use a "P" it doesn't mean i have a strong emotion about what i'm saying
De Lorimier
North American Scum
Language and national identity are more related in places where there is a majority/minority relation like in North America for the people of Québec.
Like it was written in this thread, language is only one part of the construction of the national identity but it can mean more in certain places.
Like it was written in this thread, language is only one part of the construction of the national identity but it can mean more in certain places.
Hitro
Feistus Raclettus
Are you implying that it doesn't?
German nationalism used to be (and partially still is) about ethnicity, not about language. Far from that actually, many people who are or were considered German for ethnical reasons didn't even speak a word of the language when they got the passport.
And Switzerland was not considered part of the German nation, which it should be (at least partially) if language would have been the decisive factor.
Having an official language for the nation was simply efficient. The dialects are, like Swiss German, pretty distinct. As are the cultures, btw, which is the point of the thread.
Yago
came undone
Originally posted by Hitro
German nationalism used to be (and partially still is) about ethnicity, not about language. Far from that actually, many people who are or were considered German for ethnical reasons didn't even speak a word of the language when they got the passport.
And Switzerland was not considered part of the German nation, which it should be (at least partially) if language would have been the decisive factor.
Having an official language for the nation was simply efficient. The dialects are, like Swiss German, pretty distinct. As are the cultures, btw, which is the point of the thread.
I think the whole work of the Grimms may be summed up as creation of a bogus ethnicity footing on language. After unification enforced through teaching of standard German, one of the pillars of educating subjects of Prussia to feel as members of a "German ethnicity".
The interesting thing, what made those grand-grand-parents of those "ethnic Germans", "ethnic Germans", that their ancestors talked a German dialect, maybe ?
Pariah
Outside Influence
That's fascinating, Marla. Does it mean that the written symbols aren't directly associated with the spoken sounds? I mean, if I were to learn the Chinese alphabet, I could transcribe an English conversation in it and still convey the meaning to a Chinese speaker?
Considering the intricacy, and sheer number, of Chinese letters, learning them must have been a truly daunting task.
Marla_Singer
United in diversity
Yeah well, that's right... except that it's not what we call an "alphabet". The chinese letters are "ideograms". Each words are either an ideogram or a combination of ideograms. For example, violin will be written connecting the word "string" and the word "music instrument". Chinese works a lot in association of ideas.
However, you're perfectly right. If you learn written chinese without learning spoken mandarin, you would be unable to tell a word to a chinese but he could undertand you when you would write something down. Some chinese by the way are considering their way to write better than ours mainly for that reason. They consider their written language to be universal.
ShiplordAtvar
Texan by the grace of God
It seems that there are a fair number people who believe that use of a common language and national identity are strongly positively correlated. Perhaps this could explain those who wish for immigrants to their lands to assimilate, at least to attempt to adopt the local culture, to do as the Romans instead of making the Romans do as youi.
Pariah
Outside Influence
Originally posted by Marla_Singer
If you learn written chinese without learning spoken mandarin, you would be unable to tell a word to a chinese but he could undertand you when you would write something down. Some chinese by the way are considering their way to write better than ours mainly for that reason. They consider their written language to be universal.
Thanks, maybe I'll give it a go - once I'm finished learning Greek! With China becoming ever more important on the World stage, perhaps Chinese writing will be a standard part of Western high school cirricula in a couple of decades.
Goober
Turning Right ...
We should all have one Identity: HUMAN!
And one Language: HUMANISH!
BTW I hereby annouce the new International Language, Humanish
And one Language: HUMANISH!
BTW I hereby annouce the new International Language, Humanish
If someone has read the Sweden vs. Finland language thread, you'll get an idea of how I feel about this... in the thread, Sideshowbob and and I finally came to some sort of a conclusion that language is an important part of one's identity... and for me in particular, it is the Finnish language that defines me as a Finn. I still don't buy the politically correct bs about a 6% minority's language being somehow important for my identity... it simply is not, and they would have a hard time forcing me to feel that way.
I don't think I really think in any language most of the time... it's faster to be abstract. Sometimes I do lecture to myself about some topic to gain a better understanding of it (and this causes me to speak to myself, which looks weird)... and if it is about computers or programming, it is typically in English because the vocabulary just is more complete there than in Finnish.
Yeah, imagine, there are still these backwood hicks who are stupid enough not to be able to speak the language of real civilization i.e. Swedish...
Your post has traces of a Fenno-Swedish attitude I have never been able to comprehend.. you guys imagine you have some automatic right to have all the rest 95% of the population speaking Swedish to you, and if some people don't happen to have enough "brain power" (that is, are Finnish-speaking), then you, in your grace, just MIGHT agree to exchange a few words in Finnish... it is sickening...
It is an important principle for me to never speak Swedish in my home country... that's what our language struggles have been all about -- the give the language of the overwhelming majority the recognition and rights it deserves. I make a point to always speak Finnish to a Swedish-speaker... why would I do anything else? It is good practice for them and advances my interest as a Finnish-speaker in this country...
I don't think I really think in any language most of the time... it's faster to be abstract. Sometimes I do lecture to myself about some topic to gain a better understanding of it (and this causes me to speak to myself, which looks weird)... and if it is about computers or programming, it is typically in English because the vocabulary just is more complete there than in Finnish.
Yeah, imagine, there are still these backwood hicks who are stupid enough not to be able to speak the language of real civilization i.e. Swedish...
Your post has traces of a Fenno-Swedish attitude I have never been able to comprehend.. you guys imagine you have some automatic right to have all the rest 95% of the population speaking Swedish to you, and if some people don't happen to have enough "brain power" (that is, are Finnish-speaking), then you, in your grace, just MIGHT agree to exchange a few words in Finnish... it is sickening...
It is an important principle for me to never speak Swedish in my home country... that's what our language struggles have been all about -- the give the language of the overwhelming majority the recognition and rights it deserves. I make a point to always speak Finnish to a Swedish-speaker... why would I do anything else? It is good practice for them and advances my interest as a Finnish-speaker in this country...
hawai_74
mac über alles
A language doesn't represent the national identity but the identity of a town or a small region. As said before in Switzerland (which has 4 languages, not three), if you live in the german part you won't speak the same between Bern and Zürich, towns distant from 150 km. The same in the French part.
I believe if you leave your natal country to live elsewhere, with the years you will lose (but not forget) your first identity swallowed by the new one.
I believe if you leave your natal country to live elsewhere, with the years you will lose (but not forget) your first identity swallowed by the new one.
Pariah
Outside Influence
A good grasp of the other language(s) involved in a debate, however, will minimize the odds of misinterpretation when one speaks. What you say can easily be misunderstood.
Pariah
Outside Influence
A good grasp of the other language(s) involved in a debate, however, will minimize the odds of misinterpretation when one speaks. What you say can easily be misunderstood.
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